what is fluent?

[JoH]

Can anyone tell me if there is a 'standard' accepted description of what counts as fluent for a non-native speaker learning a foreign language? I hear lots of people saying they are fluent, or asking how long it will take to get fluent - but people seem to have very different ideas of what fluent is. For me, I imagine fluency to be something very close to native speaker level - not just grammar and vocabularly but also pronunciation - and I don't think I will ever attain this in chinese! However I have also heard people use fluent to mean something like 'can understand a native speaker's questions and respond without hesitation', even though the response might not be what a native speaker would say.

Can anyone help me with a clear definition?

Thanks, Jo

[eion_padraig]

Maybe you're looking for a linguistic definition, but I would say being fluent is not about not making mistakes, afterall native speakers make grammar mistakes often enough, but about being in a certain range of "correctness". I would include proper pronounciation, register, intonation in speech, as well as listening skills.

How many adults have you met that you would describe as "native-like" speakers who learned a language after adolescence? I've met exceedingly few, even after years of a person living abroad, etc. Sometimes, it's actually a benefit for people learning English not to sound like a native speaker, because otherwise people might suspect the speaker of being rude when in fact it is a misunderstanding.

Why are you asking anyway? I hope it's not because you're feeling frustrated with learning Chinese. Good luck with your Chinese.

Eion

[Altair]

I think that there is no true definition of fluency, but the origin of the word means someone that speaks "flowingly" or "fluidly," i.e., without a lot of stops and hesitations.

In some other languages, there is also no real word that corresponds to the English word "fluent." (Chinese does have such terms, however.) For instance, in Spanish, one usually says that a person speaks a language with "mastery" ("domina el idioma").

In societies where many people (or even most people) speak more than one language, the definition of "fluency" tends to be more rigorous, such as in mainland Europe. In places like the U.S., where few people are polyglots, being able to hold a simple conversation sometimes rates as "fluent." Accent should really play no part at all, even when talking about "native fluency."

Some people talk about dreaming in a language to demonstrate "fluency," but I can recall "dreaming" in languages that I have had only the most rudimentary knowledge of.

I think good rules of thumb are like the following:

Can you use dictionaries in the language to good effect?

Can you understand movies, soap operas, comedies, children's speach?

Can you talk freely on the telephone, where sound quality and context can be an issue?

Can you use the language to persuade, argue, or berate?

If you have to say that someone must sound like a native, you will end up excluding people who may have even gained fluency in a second language, but gotten rusty or gained an accent in their mother tongue. Where diglossia and bilingualism are common, many people also have fluency in only limited spheres of life.

[galitonwu]

I think that there is no true definition of fluency too.

I 'm learning English, could you tell me what level is fluent in English?

[JoH]

Thanks for your comments. I guess I have to accept that there's no commonly agreed definition of fluent - although it doesn't seem like it should be a very useful word in that case! I mean, I appreciate that in every day use people mean different things by it, I guess I was just hoping that there would be some 'technical' meaning of the word that was clear.

Anyway, I guess it was just frustration making me ask. ; )

[confucius]

Fluency in Chinese is when you can make a prank telephone call in Beijing and they really don't believe you are a laowai.

Fluency is when you can flame Chinese character chat sites on sensitive political topics and everybody there refuses to believe that you really are a laowai.

When you have reached this level, then the fun really begins!

[benotnobody]

Fluency in English is when you can hold a conversation without hesitation, answer questions, and people can understand you fairly well when you speak. You dont need to know all the colloquialisms and idiomatic expressions of your target language, but you should be able to communicate effectively.

From what you've said on msn, galiton, id say youre almost fluent (like 2% off.)