Would You Want Your Chinese Speaking Rated?

[chairman_tap]

Hi Guys,

We're creating a free online tool to help people speak and get feedback on their Chinese speaking. We call it "howma." It's a simple website where people record through the website and other people can rate and give you comments (audio as well) on your speaking. We are trying to pair up people in China who want to learn English. So we help them learn English while they help us with Chinese.

This is a very early version of the website, but we wanted to get feedback on whether you thought this would be useful for helping you with pronunciation or not. Do you like the idea? Is there anything you think is missing? etc...

Let me warn you that website is very buggy and really works best with Firefox. Our intent is to come up with something that actually really helps people with speaking languages.

We have there main sections that we currently focus on:

• Browse--being able to view audio conent already on the system
  
• Rate--rating people who have submitted audio
  
• Community--viewing other members profiles and audio recordings
  

An example of someone's profile who has recorded Chinese is here. An example where user's profile who has recorded English is here.

If you can ignore the bugs (and I know they are there, I apologize), overall would this be something that you could find useful and would use? Why or why not? Please be brutally honest.

Thanks!

Ben

[L-F-J]

its a good idea insofar as having fun and seeing where you stand to the native ear. but i dont know that that will actually improve your performance by knowing that. perhaps by pointing out where you have problems so you can work on it- which i assume is the aim. but the improvement will only come through more listening to native speakers.

but it sounds like something to do only in the very beginning to learn correct pronunciation, but as far as perfecting accent its something to worry about at a more advanced level. first of all learn to pronounce, then learn to speak, then perfect your accent.

[roddy]

I can see it working if you can guarantee quality feedback, beyond 'that's good', and 'that's not good'. I don't see how you can do that for free. I got exactly the same impression looking around livemocha.com - which as one part of its set-up does the same thing.

If you've got a profit model here, spend the money on having professionals listen and feedback on student recordings. Get students to pay for it and you may even create a profit model. (mental note: Do this. Become rich)

Kudos on having Tim Xie learning Chinese on your site though

Edit: Another thought. If I was a beginning Chinese student, I think I might rather have my pronunciation evaluated by an advanced student of Chinese, rather than a random Chinese person. Although a native teacher of the language would still be preferred.

[chairman_tap]

Thanks for the feedback guys. You guys hit it spot on. We're not really trying to replace language learning. If anything we want people to connect with each other to help them out in a more casual way. Like you mentioned, L-F-J, we want to make it fun (something we feel is somewhat lacking on Livemocha). Our goal is if even if someone doesn't speak much Chinese, they could still help a Chinese person with their English. And then the Chinese person could help them out with their Chinese.

You are right, Roddy, we have to guarantee the feedback is legit and accurate. But hopefully if we can get the right people on board helping in the beginning we can start building that credible community (I really like the community on these forums that you have helped build up)

We've been lucky to have Dr. Xie helping us out with feedback and recording stuff for us

If you guys have any other ideas, please let me know.

[roddy]

Here's one. Get a few samples of learners speaking, then have those looked at by someone who knows what they are doing, with a write-up of what's right / wrong at a range of levels - phonemes, word / sentence stress / grammar and vocab if you want, with 'correct' versions for comparison. Make those available. That'll be valuable for learners - why learn from your own mistakes when you can learn from others, after all - and it'll also provide a model for those leaving feedback on how it should be done.

What's the background of this site? Business in the making? College project? Hobby?

[Scoobyqueen]

Roddy, your business idea is a really good one. Well done for creative thinking.

Incidentally, the idea could be promoted through the media. Have journalists test it out under the notion "is Chinese is really that hard to learn? Here is a novel way to find out if you have got what it takes in the pronunciation department".

It might even make it into the consumer press which would further promote the learning of Chinese.

[Scoobyqueen]

I just had a listen to some of the recordings and it appears that native Chinese have also recorded their samples which if true defies the idea and would scare off some users.

You need to remove the native samples. It reminds me of native Chinese who sit the HSK exam which happens a lot here in Europe. It does not contribute to your confidence as a learner.

[imron]

I don't think so. I think having native samples allows for people to compare. There is also the option to only see non-native samples.

P.S. None of the sounds seem play under Firefox on a Mac (Safari works without any problems though).

[roddy]

I don't know, having native versions would be fine if they're marked as that - especially if you can say, find a speaker of the same age and gender as yourself to use as a model.

Roddy, your business idea is a really good one. Well done for creative thinking.

I'm great at ideas. I fall down on implementation. This particular one I've actually been thinking about lately as I have the people on hand that could make it work. I'm not much of a business person though.

[chairman_tap]

All great ideas. I agree with Roddy that having native versions is still important for the website. The whole reason we want native audio, like he pointed out, is so that people have an accurate recording to compare and model themselves after. So for people who don't have the opportunity to practice with native Chinese speakers this is one casual way they can practice.

As for what the project means to us. We are trying to establish a business out of this, but our intent right now is not on how to make tons of money from this. We like the google approach--build something that is valuable first and then figure out a way to make money from it. And just like google we want to keep this service free that way we can be accessible to more people. If we don't build something valuable and useful then we have failed (as opposed to if we don't make money we've failed). I think it's been mentioned before how there's a ton of language products out there, but very few are actually useful.

We are improving and fixing a lot of the bugs that are on the website (I apologize about the firefox bug Imron, we've added it to our bug list). We built the website in a month and half just to get the concept out there and start getting feedback. Where we need help is getting this in our potential users hands (native Chinese speakers who want to improve their English and native English speakers who want to improve their Chinese). This way as we grow we keep improving it and make sure we are headed in the right direction.

If you have people you think can help, let's definitely talk some more Roddy. Any help you could offer would be awesome (I know you have seen a lot of different stuff and you are quite experienced in this "realm" of Chinese learning).

[Scoobyqueen]

Roddy - I am an implementer. If you do follow through I can help you on the PR side, ie do you a media relations plan. That will get the product known and would get the journalists involved in something that would be fun.

We may even be able to identify a celeb or two who can test the thing. It has to be a celeb who has an aptitude for languages who does not (yet) speak Chinese and who is apolical...and who is willing to do it for free. In other words a Jamie Oliver of languages. The fans would then be able to hear their celeb speak Chinese on the website. This would create great web site traffic and would highlight learning Chinese yet further and would be great for school children/teens who are so suggestable.

What about someone like....I am struggling to think of a celeb who has great language skills. There is an actress in the 4400 who speaks four languaes fluently but cant think of anyone else. However it could also be a sports star, like a tennis player. If you get it up and running before the olympics that would work! Go for it!

[chairman_tap]

Hey Guys,

I wanted to share with you a project that we've been working on for the past couple of months called howma.com. It's a social networking website where if you have a microphone you can record yourself speaking Chinese and then have other people give you feedback on your speaking. No need for separately uploading an audio file. It records directly through the website.

We are trying to bring two communities together in the beginning -- native English speakers who want to learn Chinese and connect them with native Chinese speakers who want to improve their spoken English. We figure if we can help them with their English, they can help us with our Chinese.

Here's an example of one of our members practicing English

This tool is meant to be free for all to use, and since we've spent a lot of our time developing it we wanted to see if actually any of you guys would use it. We're looking for any feedback or ideas you guys might have. Either positive or negative. Thanks in advanced for checking out our little website . Look forward to hearing your thoughts.

Ben

[imron]

Could you provide a list of things that have changed on the site since you posted about it here? Otherwise, I'm inclined to merge the two threads.

[chairman_tap]

Yeah Imron, here's a list of the following changes we've made so far:

-- You should now be able to hear audio files being played on firefox for mac

-- Added a messaging system so you can message other users

-- Added a dictionary search...where you can search by words or phrases. All phrases now link back to the dictionary

-- We've added a tagging system so you can now view words by tag categories or view words and phrases by tags

-- Added a feedback section where you can view people who have been practicing

-- Added a contribute section where you can contribute native audio

In terms of feedback we are looking for, we're just curious of any of you guys who want to improve their Chinese would use a website like ours or not. Love to hear any thoughts...

Ben

[roddy]

Merging then, don't see that this needs a new topic and the last one wasn't exactly ages ago . . .

[Scoobyqueen]

Roddy - This thread is new I agree. anyway how about starting this evaluation option at chinese-forums. it would be natural extention of ist current product range. seeing that book reviews might be posted in future why not a review of peoples chinese? I will help you find a celeb who is willing to say a few sentences in mandarin to promote project. but it shoulf be before olympics. britney is making a comeback...

[chairman_tap]

Hey Scoobyqueen. Yeah if you could find a celebrity to help record some mandarin phrases that could definitely help us out a lot! That's a good idea.

[bamboo]

chairman_tap -

We're not really trying to replace language learning. If anything we want people to connect with each other to help them out in a more casual way. Like you mentioned, L-F-J, we want to make it fun (something we feel is somewhat lacking on Livemocha). Our goal is if even if someone doesn't speak much Chinese, they could still help a Chinese person with their English....Please be brutally honest.

I am surprised no one has mentioned the visual, the importance of vision in communication or connection. Instead of just sampling sounds I think it would be just as much effort to record a video. So why not provide a place where you can see her (the other side) as well as hear her. Before iTalki.com and U-Tube and Facebook, I would agree, yes this sounds kind of interesting.

After you provide space for streaming videos, the audio only files may become extinct! Recording a video clip on your PC is not much more technical then recording a sound clip. Most female mandarin teachers would be interested in recording a video.

its a good idea insofar as having fun and seeing where you stand to the native ear. but i dont know that that will actually improve your performance by knowing that. L-F-J -

On iTalki.com what people do after they become friends (in the name of language exchange) is that they chat through various IM. Then they meet at coffee shops etc... Then...

But to keep very true to your noble intentions , the site should have a 'roadmap(s)' for improving language fluency （流利，听力）If there is nothing 'extras' from your expert teachers, then it is no different from sites like iTalki or Facebook where they promise much more visual stimulation very soon!

Face it, human beings are 'rigged' visually before auditory stimuli. I would rather spend 'quality' time with someone I think is good looking, attractive etc..to be brutally honest!

[Scoobyqueen]

Bamboo - Then one could conclude that you must to pretty/handsome and very attractive yourself (sorry for the inevitable sarcasm your brutally honest attitude attracts). I personally would prefer learning a language through conversing with someone who is sociable adept and is able to cover a range of general topics. They dont have to be attractive visually as that would not aid my language learning, might distract rather.

There is also an aural side to language learning of which the Haoma site attempts to cover some parts. Making phone calls in another language is an example of the aural aspect. I learnt one language that way - 20 minutes a day - it was hard because of the lack of visual cues, but had advantages also since you focus only on hearing. In fact, in business most communication is conducted by phone.

Recording your own voice and monitoring progress has been dicussed here as being a good way to improve (for some). Allowing others to evaluate your weak and strong points falls into this category.

Tap - Your website has not quite got the track record yet that would be required for a celebrity to be able support it. This is why I proposed that Chinese-Forum could offer this evaluation service, since it already has a range of other services which could be seen as juxtaposed (Grammar questions, Vocab questions and now why not also Voice questions). Chinese-Forums has reached a position of being able to show steady growth over a five year period and is, possibly, in a position to be able to express a direct correlation between a learner's progress through the services it offers. That's the sort of figures required for a celeb inclusion.