Confused about Chinese Religion

[yingguoguy]

I've lived in China now for nearly 3 years and I've visited many places and many temples here. And yet it seems the more I study about the different religions in China the less I understand them.

The problem is that if I read about Buddhism, or Confusianism or Daoism on it's own it makes sense, but traditionally Chinese people don't identify solely with one religion, but follow a mixture of all three, and take customs and practices from all three. This gets confusing.

For example, today is Qingming Jie, the Tomb-sweeping festival, where people visit the graves of their ancestors and burn money for them. This got me thinking about what Chinese people believe happen when they die.

this site says

Their [Chinese religion's] basic approach to both religion and philosophy is ethical in nature. The primary concern is how to lead a good life on earth, how to construct a society, a family, a government, that creates the best life for all people. Thus their concerns with gods and spirits are in the ways these beings help or hinder the construction of a good life on earth. While both Daoism and Buddhism developed the idea of multiple heavens and hells and an after-life connected with these places, neither tradition emphasized the after-life over this life on earth. The after-life was usually a secondary consideration. Thus the focus was on bettering people and thus bettering society.

This site tells us:

The Chinese conception of the afterlife is based on a combination of Chinese folk religions, Taoism and Mahayana Buddhism.

At the moment of death, Chinese believe one's spirit is taken by messengers to the god of walls and moats, Ch'eng Huang, who conducts a kind of preliminary hearing. Those found virtuous may go directly to one of the Buddhist paradises, to the dwelling place of the Taoist immortals, or the tenth court of hell for immediate rebirth.

After 49 days, sinners descend to hell, located at the base of the mythical Mount Meru. There they undergo a fixed period of punishment in one or more levels of hell. The duration of this punishment may be reduced by the intercession of the merciful Ti-ts'ang.

When the punishment is complete, the souls in hell drink an elixir of oblivion in preparation for their next reincarnation.

They then climb on the wheel of transmigration, which takes them to their next reincarnation, or, in an alternative account, they are thrown off the bridge of pain into a river that sweeps them off to their next life.

According to Buddhism the following are possible on death...

1) Achieve Nirvana and leave the circle of life.

2) Achieve Nirvana but remain in the world as a Bodhisattva

3) Be reborn as a human or animal.

4) Be reborn as a god or demigod.

(Apparently only humans can achieve nirvana, and do gods die?)

5) Become a hungry ghost

(This can happen if some has a bad death, but also if decendants don't do the proper rituals)

6) Become a hell being

(This presumably is different from the period spent in hell that every person except the saintly have to endure?)

According to Daoism

7) Become an "Immortal" by purifying yourself of moral imperfections.

What happens to people who fail to become an immortal? In the quote above it implies that the default to getting the Buddist treatment, but given that Daoism predates Buddism by a few hundred years there must previously have been another answer.

According to Folk Religion?

Become a "place god" or Tudi. Someone who has assisted the community might be deified and sacrificed to, in the hope that he will continue his assistance. This presumably is different from a hungry ghost as the deceased has to be unhappy to return as a ghost.

According to Confucianism (and folk tradition)

9) I'm not sure what happens to people when they die in Confucianism, but it seems to be somewhere where they need money and can watch over their decendents? (Hence today's festival)

Sorry this is a really disorganized post, but that's because I'm confused. My non-religious Chinese girlfriend has tried to explain some of this to me, but it hasn't helped.

[skylee]

I am confused too.

I went to the cemetary last month to pay respect to my father and we burnt incense sticks, paper money etc. (We did it ahead of Qingming to avoid the crowd.) But do we believe that he would get our offerings? And do we know where he is? Some of us might think that if there is a hell or if there is an afterlife then what we burn might reach our ancestors and improve their condition etc. But I do it just because it is custom. For me it is just a way of how we pay our respect to our ancestors. Same thing as cleaning and bringing flowers to a grave in the west. It's just that we do more. These customs probably had deeper meanings originally. But I don't really know or care about them. Actually I did not burn anything that day and my folks didn't seem to care much either.

[YuehanHao]

I find this subject interesting too. Chinese religion is mysterious and confusing, but in my view, not any more so than any other variety.

Even so, for all religions, they seem to make perfect sense if I just read and accept; but it seems when I begin to apply logic I begin to misunderstand.

I could be all wrong, but I would bet anything that most of the folks I saw praying at temples would have no idea as to the answers to the questions posed by yingguoguy, and probably wouldn't worry about it too much. Just my perception, that their behavior was motivated by tradition and the prevailing societal viewpoint, much like many people I know in the U.S. who attend religious services mainly for the inner feeling but who could not explain much religious theory other than Jesus loves you.

I am also curious what others would think about those questions. Maybe there is someone who is the exception who can make it all coherent logically.

约翰好！

[dalaowai]

Confucians by day and Daoists by night. This statement best describes Chinese religions/philosophy.

I've seen this kind of religious mixing in the Canadian prairies, the Métis follow a mix between Catholicism and aboriginal beliefs. One minute in a church, the next in a Sweat Lodge. While hunting bison or deer, they will offer a prayer to a different nature God.

Confucianism and Daoism will often cross over into each other. After studying 山水画 i got a better idea of how they intermix.

Very interesting subject yingguo guy. I recommend reading the textbooks "Living Relgions" by Mary Fisher and "A history of World religions" by David S Noss. Both of these books cover Chinese religions very well.

[Lu]

I have the impression that many people in Taiwan at least don't even know for sure what they believe in, although they do know where to baibai and to what god, and when to burn paper money.

To illustrate the confusion: I once saw a temple (in Guanmiao, near Tainan) that contained statues of Guan Gong, Guanyin, and Confucius. When I asked about this mix-up, my local friend explain that of course Confucius is also a Taoist god.

I actually kind of like it. You won't have any religious quarrels if everyone believes in several things at the same time, and no-one is quite sure what those things mean. And Chinese deities are a lot less jealous than the christian god, they don't mind if you pray to some other gods too.

[gato]

These two pages below come the closest to describing how religion is practiced in mainland China. There are very few Buddhists or Daoism in mainland today, and very few people know anything about them. Confucianism is not a religion but an ethical system. Any religious aspect of Confucianism is really part of the folk religion described below.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_folk_religion

Chinese folk religion

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancestor_worship

Ancestor veneration

[here2learn]

And Chinese deities are a lot less jealous than the christian god, they don't mind if you pray to some other gods too.

Haha.... I love that line! That's good. I love it.

Personally I don't call myself any religion, but I do 'believe' - or should I say naturally follow the ideas and concepts of many of them. I'm not sure what the OP is asking, and I'm no expert on religion. I've just done a layman's amount of reading, and been to a few temples and churches, but if my own personal way of blending religions can offer any light, I'd love to discuss it more.

Perhaps there's a basic fault in the foundation of this whole topic... and that is actually, now that I think of it... the quote above.... the idea that people should only believe in ONE religion. Who says?

I know, some of the religions say. Some say "we are right and you should believe no one over us", right? But I think this was to help people avoid being led "astray" and possibly getting involved in "bad things". If some other Way is also Good, then why not listen to them too?

Ha... Christianity and Islam both say don't kill, don't commit adultery, etc... uh... gee which should I listen too? From what I see, the basics of being 'good people' are the same in every religion. It's just the details that are different. Those details are different because different people made them up at different times in different parts of the world... but

... the important thing is...

isn't it interesting how the basics are the same? How can people say humans are basically bad if people throughout time, all over the world, have made basic rules against killing and cheating and lying and stealing?

[yingguoguy]

Thanks for all your replies.

First of all, let me clarify the question as my first post was quite confused. I guess what I'm really asking is:

What does the average religious Chinese person believe will happen when they die?

I guess I'm also confused by the Chinese idea of hell. I seem to have got the idea from somewhere that Chinese souls don't generally go to heaven (That's reserved for the gods), but they might go to hell. But what is this hell actually like? Is it a bad place?

The other thing is that Buddhism and Chinese folk religion seem have a major difference about death. How can you reconcile ancestor worship with reincarnation? (My ancestor is now someone elses son and can't remember their previous life so how can I worship them) And if you don't believe in reincarnation, can Buddhism make any sense?

Skylee: it seems, like you, many modern Chinese are not religious, but follow these customs for the sake of tradition. For the record, I and all of my immediate family are athiests, but we still celebrate Christmas, because it is nice to have a family festival during winter. Similarly I'm sure many Chinese feel it's right to have a festival for the dead and they don't think to much about the religious implications. But surely monks and scholars have thought about the issues above?

YuehanHao: although no doubt Christians in the West are confused about many religous issues, Christianity is very clear about what happens when you die. If you are a good Christian and ask for forgiveness for your sins you go to heaven, if not you go to hell.

Dalaowai: thanks I'll try and find those books you mention.

here2learn: But religions are not all the same. Sure Christianity and Islam both say you shouldn't kill, but you need to do more than just go through your life without killing anyone in order to go to heaven. Islam has a very specific and definate regulations that muslims are expected to follow and it is not okay to be a 'well-behaved heathen'. Similary Roman Catholicism has a very definate (but different) set of rituals; baptism, confession, matromony etc which are important in and of themselves. Inevitably some of the morals and ethics of the religions are going to be the same, but often they are not. Religion differ wildly in their attitudes about womens rights, animal rights, divorce, homosexuality, pre or extramatrital sex, the number of wives you should be allowed, abortion, contraception, behaviour required towards leaders, behaviour required towards parents, behaviour required towards people of a different religion, the list goes on. And of course within each religion or sect there is a lot of discussion and dispute about these.

As an athiest I feel free ignore any of these that I disagree with, but if you do believe in a religion then, even if there are things you are not sure about, there are certain things you have to believe in. For example it is impossible to be both a Buddist and a Christian since it is impossible to believe simulataneously in everlasting redemption on one hand, and reincarnation on the other. Although it is important to be tolerant of someone else's, I think it's a mistake, one which is being made more and more, to say that all religions are essentially the same.

However I think you probably have a point here, in that Christianity and Islam require you to believe in them to get a reward, where as, and I may be on shaky theological ground here, Buddism probably says you gain and lose karma whether you believe in Buddism or not. That is a Christian who lived a good life according to Jesus's teaching would probably have good karma and get a good form in his next life, although probably not be able to achieve nirvana.

Coming back to the question in hand, although, because they've cohabited in China for hundreds of years, Confusianism, Daoism, and Buddhism have probably come closer together, but aren't there still major contradictions in their beliefs? As people have been saying, many most Chinese don't think logically about this very much, but if they did what answers would they come up with?

[gato]

Coming back to the question in hand, although, because they've cohabited in China for hundreds of years, Confusianism, Daoism, and Buddhism have probably come closer together, but aren't there still major contradictions in their beliefs? As people have been saying, many most Chinese don't think logically about this very much, but if they did what answers would they come up with?

The answer lies within the question.

[Quest]

Chinese religion is more folk tales and customs, because few read/understand religious scriptures and few actively preach them. I am glad the government is finally willing to make 清明 such a big 节日 a national holiday. More kids will be exposed to this tradition because they don't have to go to school on that day. Communism almost wiped these things out. 端午 and 中秋 will each have 1 day, they should add 重阳 as well.

[here2learn]

Yes, I know the details of religions are different, but I think those details are unimportant. I don't think it's necessary to pray on certain days or eat certain foods in order to get to heaven. I think they were given as guidelines to make sure the people DO IT and have a sense of togetherness, reminders. But I'd have a hard time believing there's a god-figure up there saying "You can't come to heaven! You prayed on Saturdays instead of Sundays!" etc.

As for abortion, almost all say it's murder, at least past a certain point. As for ceremonies like baptism and celebrations... it's all just fluff to me. I don't mean it's not meaningful, it IS VERY meaningful, gives people a sense of community, of continuity, of safety, of comfort. But even if they're necessary, why are one religion's rituals better than another's? I think if the purpose is done (give people a certain feeling) then it's not important if the baptism was done at birth or at age 13 or whatever. Beliefs are just that - beliefs, not facts.

Baptists believe a person should be baptized by choice, when they're old enough to understand what they're doing.

Catholics believe it should be done asap, just in case something bad happens to the child, he'll have been baptized.

I can see both those sides. Neither is right or wrong, they're both just different facets of the same dodecahedron in the sky we all look up to. We all see different faces, but the intention is *usually* the same.

As for marriage, like multiple marriages in Islam... some Muslims will say its original intention was to make sure women were not left alone. It was not meant for man's pleasure, unless he was so rich, haha, but that happens in every culture - rich men can seem to get away with cheating for some reason... anyway, some muslims say that if there was a war and many men were killed, some men, if they're financially able, should take on some of those widows, or young girls who have no hope of marriage, because leaving them alone as a single parent or a 'spinster' would be WAY worse than having 3 wives. They also say you should have lots of kids, so leaving a perfectly good young lady with no man would be against God's wishes. Then SHE'd be in trouble with God for not reproducing, haha... (really, it's true)

Of course these things get twisted over time toward one extreme or the other... and nowadays there is not such a risk of losing many men in battle, or starvation... in fact overpopulation might be a problem in some places... so we might see that old reason as outdated, and many muslims today would never marry more than one person.

Anyway, that was just an example... I mean an example of how a "detail" as I call it, is not so important.

I'm sorry it's off the topic of Chinese religions, but that's how I justify and see believing in several religions. Again I don't say I AM "X" RELIGION, because I feel that if I don't 100% believe it I shouldn't say I am it.

But I can enjoy, and have fun with, and find comfort in parts of whichever religions I choose.

Oh, this site has info, both serious and fun, about all different religions. Maybe someone at those forums can shed light, or maybe there's some other chinese religion articles... the site talks about all religions in a positive way, it's fun and educational....

http://www.beliefnet.com/

[davidzq]

I'm in china for a few months with my chinese wife; we also went to do the ceremony a few days early to beat the crowd.

Anyone who likes chinese poetry should look up two about QingMing Jie: One by Cui Hu, who lived in the mid-Tang and wrote an eduring poem which reflects the lover's feeling when they missed their true love; and Du Mu in the late Tang.

China has traditionally divided the year into 24 seasons as a guide to farmers affairs and represented the springing forth of life from it's hibernated winter; spring cleaning would be fitting here. The Tang emperor in 732 made this a once a year official time to pay formal respects to the deceased, which coupled it with the embracing of spring.

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Concerning the main topic at hand; My feeling is that most mainland chinese are not religious but observe the traditions (as was previously stated). Confucianism gives them their ethical drive for duty, Daoism gives them the peace they seek for inner harmony and Buddhism gives them the spiritual contemplation for eternal beliefs. So, I think they are not really religious in the western sense but do think they are spiritual on some level due to the influence of Daoism and Buddhism. A religious Buddhist or Daoist would follow strict patterns of living as espoused by the sects teachings and most don't... it's too formal and strict a way of life for the more practical chinese at large.

Chinese don't appear to have any issue with conflating systems of thought and even feel no contradition in being a buddhist and a christian; so it comes as no surprise that they have successfully mingled their own philosophies for a long time.

Daoism is really two branches; a philosophy and a religion. I think the former is within them more than the latter ideas of immortality. But the Buddhist customs and belief in the karmic cycle appears to have some hold; I think this is consistent with Daoism and may be why it found root.

So, I might tend to say that many chinese believe that people come back [in some form]; they have long seen this in nature (grass dies, and comes back; sun sets and returns, seasons repeat, etc). This is reconciled to ancestor worship since that comes from confucianism (some say it predates him but he made it important). Thus, they see no problem with taking from different systems and simply observing them.

I would also say that on a certain level, they don't feel a need to delve into the deeper metaphysical meanings they have mingled together; They are not as the greeks who sought to understand the atomic nature or those who seek to understand the ways of god. On some level, they just 'do' it without needing to have resolved the details too much. As Lao Zi pointed out, there is no way of really understanding how Dao came about (or how to describe it--except by looking to nature) but it is nonetheless an influence on them historically.