Is 不 bu4 or bu2?

[xuefang]

In word bu (不) is it said by the fourth or second tone? In Dictionaries or so on there has been that it is the fourth tone when it's alone, but it is the second tone if it is together with some other words, for example 不论 bu2 lun4.

So why's that?

[galitonwu]

两种读音都有。

when it's alone, it means not agree with somebody's opinion, so we use the fourth tone.

maybe the fourth tone is more stronger than the second.

[Shi Rui'en]

In the case of 不论 bu becomes 2nd tone because the word following it is 4th tone. It is hard to say two 4th tone words back to back so the first becomes a 2nd tone such as in the case of 不论 and 不是。

瑞恩

[ala]

不是 bu4 shi4 is allowed too.

[shibo77]

shibo77

Joined: 23 Apr 2004

Posts: 100

Location: Beijing CHINA

Great numbers!!

I think this was discussed before.

TONE CHANGE OF "不bu4"

bu4 (isolated) = bu4

bu4 + 1st tone = bu4

bu4 + 2nd tone = bu4

bu4 + 3rd tone = bu4

bu4 + 4th tone = bu2

bu4 + 5th tone = bu4

-Shibo

[sm_sung]

ala wrote:

不是 bu4 shi4 is allowed too.

Is this officially(i.e. by the government) allowed? I pronounce 不是 this way quite often.

[galitonwu]

1. 不是 bu4 shi4 is not allow .

2.

"It is hard to say two 4th tone words "

It is a good explaination . e.g. 不时,不少,不多见

[zackzhou]

不是 bu4 shi4 is allowed too.

it's incorrect, native speakers don't speak that way about bu4 shi4.

but you can say 不行 bu4 xing4

[galitonwu]

but you can say 不行 bu4 xing4

不行 bu4 xing2

[zackzhou]

but you can say 不行 bu4 xing4

sorry, my fault

[ala]

I guess I'm not native speaker then. Because I use 不是 bu4shi4 all the time, esp over telephones and have the desire to be clearly heard. It's not that difficult for me to pronounce. In fact I specifically use bu4shi4 when I correct and advise someone. bu2shi4 to me sounds sometimes quite condescending or impatient (like recoiling).

sm_sung seems to agree with me.

I don't think it's official though. But it's certainly common enough to be allowed in society. And who complains when a Beijing anchor pronounces Wen Jiabo as Ven Jiabo?

[sm_sung]

bu2shi4 to me sounds sometimes quite condescending or impatient (like recoiling).

Same here. I only pronounce 不是 as bu2shi4 when I'm trying to emphasize the 不 portion of the clause, which is often unnecessary. So far, people seem to understand me just fine.

zackzhou and galitonwu, you seem to be native mandarin speakers. Do you follow the 不+[第四声](fourth tone) ------------------>bu2+[第四声] rule without any exceptions?

[skylee]

And who complains when a Beijing anchor pronounces Wen Jiabo as Ven Jiabo?

I like this.

[skylee]

By the way, I seem to often hear people say 多 (duo1) as duo2, such as in 多漂亮, 多好. Do I mishear?

[BeijingSlacker]

"不是 bu4 shi4 is allowed too."

不是 bu4 shi4 is simply wrong.

Never heard of it in my life ,and I wouldn't be able to understand it in most contexts.

[ala]

不是 bu4 shi4 is simply wrong.

Never heard of it in my life ' date='and I wouldn't be able to understand it in most contexts.[/quote']

You never noticed.

In southern parts of China (and Taiwan), you hear bu4 shi4 in various circumstances. And no, I disagree that you wouldn't understand if I said bu4 shi4. bu4 shi4 is also the official dictionary entry, as Beijing's tone sandhi rules are not incorporated.

[BeijingSlacker]

Would you paste the dictionary entry here. I mean the part that explicitly says its pronounced "bu4 shi4"

Even though there is such an entry in some dictionary, I would still suggest Chinese learners go with bu2 shi4 coz thats how most native Mandarin speakers pronounce it. Have you ever heard any CCTV news announcer saying bu4 shi4?? I tried bu4 shi4 a couple of times and it was just so awkward. I am positive if they had ever said it that way, I would have noticed and remembered.

I hate to say this and I am sure you hate to hear this, but how people pronounce this word in some southern areas doesn't really matter. Whats a standard for, eh?

No offense at all. I dont mind hearing people speak accented Mandarin at all, as long as the meaning can come across, but our discussion here is for educational purposes.

[sm_sung]

BeijingSlacker wrote:

Never heard of it in my life ,and I wouldn't be able to understand it in most contexts

Maybe that's because you don't remember hearing it, because it was a rather unimportant detail. Do you run into great difficulties when trying to understand Taiwanese Mandarin?

...thats how most native Mandarin speakers pronounce it.

There's no such thing as a "native Putonghua speaker". It's an invented standard based on the Beijing dialect. I'm sure you've noticed the difference between Beijinghua and Putonghua.

I tried bu4 shi4 a couple of times and it was just so awkward.

As I've mentioned earlier, I use bu2 shi4 only to emphasize 不. I tried using bu2 shi4 all the time and it was just so awkward.

I hate to say this and I am sure you hate to hear this, but how people pronounce this word in some southern areas doesn't really matter. Whats a standard for, eh?

No offence to you too, but, in my experience, this response is very typical of Beijingers. If many Southerners(as a whole, not just one or two dialect groups) pronounce 不是 as bu4 shi4, shouldn't it be accepted as standard usage too? After all Putonghua is supposed to be a national language, not a regional dialect.

It's very natural for spoken languages to differ slightly in different areas. For example Mary, marry, merry may be pronounced in the same way or differently depending on where you are. Formal written language however, is usually standardised.

There's a reason Putonghua was chosen as the only written standard. If I wrote Chinese in the Fujian dialect you would find it very odd (though you might still understand it).

For example:

福建話:汝食好未?

普通话：你吃好了吗？

[BeijingSlacker]

The marry/merry anology doesn't hold here coz internationally there isn't a standarded English system all the native speakers agree on.(well, SA and RP are far less applied than Putonghua.) Brits, Aussies, Canadians, Americans..... Their accents are comprehensible to each other so there is no point of having an international standard.

Again, I think its perfectly ok for anyone to speak any accents/dialects. I dont understand the sentence you wrote, nor any Fujianese words, but I definitely support preservation of Fujianese, Cantonese, Sichuanese....whatever-ese. However, when it comes to one particular language, shouldn't we have a standard? I guess if anyone was to learn Fujianese, you wouldn't suggest he learn some Cantonese--accented Fujianese. I guess you wouldn't like it if I was to walk around telling people to go with the accent way I pronounced some Fujianese word which I learned as a second language.

[shibo77]

Remember there are two meanings of "dictionaries" in China.

A character dictionary and a word dictionary.

字典Character dictionaries focus on characters and how it forms with other characters, but mainly on the characters themselves.

词典Word dictionaries focus on word entries and the words' menaings and usage and pronunciation.

新华字典(新华)Xinhua "New China" Character Dictionary lists 不 simply as bu4, 不错bu4cuo4, 不是bu4shi4.

现代汉语词典(现汉)Modern Chinese Word Dictionary lists all 不 preceding a 去声departing tone character as bu2, 不错bu2cuo4, 不是bu2shi4.

-Shibo