Is there a standardized "pinyin" for 上海话?

[wushijiao]

Does anybody know if there is a standardized "pinyin" (or Roman alphabet) for Shanghaihua or Wu? The book that I have "学说上海话" is pretty good, but it only has linguistic equivalents for the sounds, which I suppose makes it accurate yet difficult to learn for non-linguists.

I realize I'm being somewhat lazy. Thanks for the help!

[ala]

No, there is no standardized romanization for Shanghainese.

In the link below are 8 different published pinyin schemes and their comparisons with IPA (international phonetic alphabet) and other schemes. Chinese character examples are also provided. Some are geared towards Hanyu Pinyin users (赵式、江拉、钱式、苏石), some are geared towards Western speakers. You might want to study the Hanyu Pinyin schemes to see the obvious differences and also compare with the IPA. I personally prefer the non-Hanyu Pinyin schemes, as they are more intuitive. The Hanyu Pinyin schemes try to mold a Mandarin scheme over a rather incompatible Shanghainese phonology (like spelling what sounds like an English /z/ as sh). The most simplified scheme is 阮式, based on 新派 form of Shanghainese, which has 15 less vowel rhymes to deal with. If you speak French, definitely look at 法式 (since Shanghainese maps quite well with French phonetics).

http://wu-dialect.cnsitcom.com/pingyin.doc

Also it needs to be pointed out that even though many of the schemes have -ng endings, Shanghainese does not have velar nasal finals like Mandarin Hanyu Pinyin or English's -ng. It is far closer to an -n, than -ng. It is actually palatal, so should be spelled closer as -gn.

[sm_sung]

I don't think there's a standardized romanization scheme for any dialect other than putonghua. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[shibo77]

GUAN(MANDARIN)

Mainland: 汉语拼音Hanyu Pinyin

Taiwan: 通用拼音Tongyong Pinyin, 注音符号Zhuyin Fuhao

YUE(CANTONESE)

Mainland: 拼音Penkyamp, 国际音标IPA

Hong Kong: 粤拼Jyutping

MINNAN:CHAOZHOU(TAIWANESE/FUKIENESE:TEOCHEW)

潮州拼音Chaozhou Pinyin

MINNAN, HAKKA uses 注音符号Zhuyin Fuhao (extended).

Many dialects other than Mandarin uses 国际音标IPA instead.

-Shibo

[wushijiao]

By the way ala, which of the pinyin plans do you like the best and why?

[Guest Yau]

Accuracy should be the toppest priority to all pinyins. Are all different shanghaiese system the same in this aspect?

[ala]

The problem with accuracy is also that pronunciation varies greatly amongst Shanghainese speaker of different ages. Shanghainese is probably the most volatile Chinese dialect. You might very much be learning a defunct set of pronunciation if you strive for the most detailed pinyin system. The Shanghainese spoken in the film Flowers of Shanghai is mostly incomprehensible and very strange sounding to people under 25-30, it is difficult to understand for those under 50. The storytelling programs claimed to be Shanghainese is mostly ignored by the population because people have trouble understanding them (and they sound unnatural). Some of the vowels distinguished in the more complicated systems cannot be distinguished (like -ang and -an) by the bulk of native Shanghainese speakers. But the learner might exaggerate the differences leading to incomprehensibility.

However, all of the systems are fairly consistent in the initial consonants, it is something that Shanghainese shares with all Wu dialects (being the most rich in their initials of all Chinese dialects). Tones also have remained the same since 1930's.

Most textbooks use the Middle Style of Shanghainese, which is for people born from 1930's to early 1970's. Partly this is because the authors themselves are within that age bracket, and also because there is a common conception that the Middle Style is the most orthodox (more orthodox than the Old Style).

Of the 8 systems listed in that link, only 阮式 is designed for the New Style, but it has some design limitations by not differentiating voiced consonants from voiceless unaspirated. The most complex systems are 钱式 and 法式. More than 1/3 of their vowel rhymes, I cannot differentiate myself as I was born after 1970. The most intuitive tonal representation systems are 钱式 and 城大, where only the high pitch is marked. The most visually clustered and intimidating tonal representation is 阮式 and 汤式, they use numbers to mark ALL syllables, even though unnecessary and misleading.

If I were a learner, I would go with 阮式:《自学上海话》阮恒辉, the New Style still. First its the most minimal to learn, and you will still be easily understood by the bulk of the population, as how else do parents understand their children born after 1970? The only problem with 阮式 is its overly citational tone representation, but that can just be ignored. The only tone that matter is 53, and the tone 13 refers to initials that are voiced.

There is no standard romanization for Shanghainese mainly because of this huge gap between Middle and New. A system completely based on Middle's pronunciation, would present a huge challenge to master for anyone under 30, and a system completely based on the New will lose a lot of phenomes and greatly reduce the rich sound system of Shanghainese by officializing the New pronunciation. The New pronunciation is also complicated by the various extent of "newness" and departure from the Middle.

[wushijiao]

Of course every language changes over time, but why is there such a gap between Middle and New? Is it the introduction of putonghua in the mass media and schools?

[ala]

Yeah, exactly, because of standard Mandarin propagation and education started in the early 1970's. Characters were no longer educated in Shanghainese and Mandarin's pinyin was introduced. Another factor was more contact with speakers from outlying districts of Shanghai. Similar vowels all merged into one (for example, vowels that kind of sound like the Mandarin u all became the same u), the number of phenomes dropped to around the number for Mandarin. Even the sound quality has changed, conversational speech today is much lower in pitch and syllables come out much more abrupt than 40 years ago. Tones have pretty much converted to a Japanese-like pitch accent system (high vs. low) in conversation (the transition started 150 years ago). Today the Old style is considered very rural, as some rural towns outside Shanghai still speak it (but the youth there has been adopting the New pronunciations as well). Basically, the New style is much easier to pronounce (essentially the lowest common denominator of all Wu dialects), and more tolerant in all aspects (vowels, tones, etc). It also means a lot of new homophones that need to be disambiguated by more polysyllabic words. All Wu dialects are transforming greatly due to Mandarin influence. The Shanghainese New style however is expanding its influence in recent years throughout the region, it seems the New style is a rather stable equilibrium.