Taiwanese names and romanisation

[atitarev]

Hi,

Here's a link how many Taiwanese names can and are often romanised using Hanyu Pinyin:

http://www.pinyin.info/taiwan/place_names.html

Although, I don't necessarily agree with the comment that original Taiwanese names in English should be replaced with the new ones (Taiwanese people may not be happy) but do you think the alternative spelling is necessary? I mean, Hsinchu (新竹) or Kaohsiung (高雄) is hard to read and Hanyu Pinyin is well understood. For me, Xinzhu or Gaoxiong makes more sense. What about you?

[skylee]

Much as I prefer Hanyu Pinyin, I think it is not necessary to change the place names like Hsinchu and Kaohsiung. Peking University has not changed its name to Beijing University, has it? And Tsing Tao Beer is still Tsing Tao Beer.

I would be unhappy if one day someone says that the name of Hong Kong is to be changed to Xianggang.

[Lu]

original Taiwanese names in English

You mean Chinese names in romanisation?

Corrupted W-G is hard to read for who is used to pinyin; Hanyu pinyin is well understood for who has learned it. But people in Taiwan don't read the romanisation, they read the characters, and they generally don't know pinyin. For all they care in their everyday life, there is no need to change anything.

I'm all for changing everything to pinyin, including people's and organisations' names. Perhaps some progress will be made now that Ma is going to be president, he made all of Taipei (sic) city use pinyin, even if he's still grossly misspelling his own name.

The Taiwanese probably won't be unhappy about it, if they will notice at all. But it might increase confusion. Even though that southern city is sometimes spelled in abominations like Gaoshiong, many people probably know by now it's officially Kaohsiung. Changing that, without actually starting to teach children in school how to use pinyin properly, might make all spelling go completely over the edge.

Skylee: I agree about Hong Kong not Xianggang. But I have the impression that HK, while not using pinyin, is consistent in the use of its own system, which is more than one can say of Taiwan.

[chaxiu]

Well...could someone tell me who would benefit from the change. The locals can read the characters, right? Maybe it would be really useful for the expected influx of tourist and cheap labour under Mr Ma. We'll have to wait and see....exciting stuff.

Anyone who learns Hanyu pinyin before coming to Taiwan may find it a little strange at first, but it's a very small part of the experience. When learning here you can choose to learn Hanyu or Zhuyin. I would strongly recommend learning both....and then learn the characters.

As for non-Chinese speaking tourists. I'm sure that romanisation is useful, but could they pronounce Taizhong better than Taichung.

I just wish that they would use a consistent form. For example there is a road (大雅路) near where I live that in the space two traffic lights goes from Daya Rd to Taya Rd. Of course all the English teachers in the area constantly find themselves completely lost.

I really can't wait to get back to Australia and see all the states, territories, cities, towns and road signs changed into characters, pinyin and maybe some Japanese, just to be on the safe side....really.

Chaxiu

[yonglin]

As for non-Chinese speaking tourists. I'm sure that romanisation is useful, but could they pronounce Taizhong better than Taichung.

I agree with this point. If you have an average English speaker pronounce Chinese words using both Wade Giles and Hanyu pinyin, I'm convinced Wade Giles would do a better job - most people tend to freak out at the sight of all the x's and q's in hanyu pinyin. For instance, if they read "xi", they might say "ksi"; "hsi" is probably more intuitive for an English speaker.

[atitarev]

Thanks for your replies. Skylee, Hong Kong is different, it follows Cantonese not Mandarin pronunciation but in Taiwan Mandarin is standard. Keelung is actually pronounced as Jilong.

[imron]

I think it's all about consistency. When you have the same characters being romanised in different ways in different areas then it can lead to confusion. So then it comes down to which standard to choose, and Hanyu pinyin is obviously a prime contender due to its proliferation.

As a side note does anyone know what romanisation is used for names like Tsing Tao and Tsinghua? Several Chinese websites seem to state that it's Wade Giles, however when looking at this romanisation comparison chart Tsing doesn't seem to appear anywhere.

[skylee]

Skylee, Hong Kong is different, it follows Cantonese not Mandarin pronunciation but in Taiwan Mandarin is standard.

wow, thanks for pointing that out.

[atitarev]

I don't mean to be a smart peter, Skylee but I only explain why it's different from Taiwanese romanisation. The bastardised Wade-Giles is used inconsistently - ch'- and ch- (ch- and zh- in Hanyu Pinyin) are both romanised as ch-. So, 台中 is written as Taichung. It's not obvious, which initial it is (the standard WG is Taich'ung). When it is written as Taizhong, it becomes clearer.

Yes, it is about consistency too. Wade-Giles, Tonyong Pinyin and Hanyu Pinying are all used in Taiwan. Some names are written using the aboriginal pronunciation like Keelung or perhaps Japanese pronunciation (Matsu) but there is no contention about how to pronounce the words in Chinese in Taiwan, as Mandarin is de facto standard and is preferred by majority. Hanyu Pinyin is now well-known but in Taiwan even Mandarin teachers are not sure how to romanise words if they have too.

It's ridiculous when the same street or person name is written in a variety of romanisations, especially if you don't know which one is used or whether you need to add an apostrophe.

As I said before, I am not suggesting to rename the English names for Taiwanese cities (have to ask the Taiwanese first ) but provide a consistent alternative.

I don't see how Hs- is better than X-, it's all a matter of knowledge and exposure. China being a mainstream, makes the latter more known.

Beijing is still written as Peking - Peking duck, Peking opera or Peking university, it's historical but it's gradually changing when people are more accustomed to say Beijing and Peking becomes out of use. Our teachers insist on Beijing duck..., etc. though.

I don't see any harm in just knowing or letteing people know that Hong Kong (Hēunggóng) is also Xianggang (Xiānggǎng), either, if you forget Cantonese vs Mandarin battle for a moment, when I type in MS IME "xianggang", I get 香港 and I know what they call HK in Beijing or a minority in HK. No, I am not suggesting any renaming but alternative names are useful, IMHO. Compare this with Beijing, what's wrong in knowing or providing info that Beijing is pronounced Bakging in Cantonese? Or that Tibet is called Xizang and Huhhot is Huhehaote in standard Mandarin?

EDIT corrected Bakging, thanks, Skylee

[skylee]

what's wrong in knowing or providing info that Beijing is pronounced Batging in Cantonese?

hmmm .... What is wrong is that using Jyutping it is bakging, not batging. The difference between the -k ending and the -t ending is very obvious. But of course it has little to do with the subject of this thread.

[atitarev]

Corrected. Thanks, Skylee. I forgot the correct one.

Some names I referred to before:

基隆 Jīlóng Keelung or Jilong - this makes me think the renaming in English is outstanding,

馬祖 (马祖) Mǎzǔ Matsu/Mazu - "tsu"may not be Japanese but Wade-Giles spelling. Anyway, current romanisation doesn't distinguish between WG: "ts'u-" and "tsu-" (HP: "cu-", "zu-") as the apostrophes are omitted.

I made a list for myself, to unconfuse myself when talking about Taiwanese geography, it has simplified before the traditional characters, please ignore this, it's just a way I saved them in Wenlin (semiautomatic). Highlighted are the traditional English names when different from HP:

台北[臺-] Táiběi p.w. Taipei (Taibei) (capital of Taiwan)

中兴新村[-興--] Zhōngxìng Xīncūn name Jhongsing Village, Chunghsing Village or Zhongxing Village (Taiwan)

高雄 Gāoxióng p.w. Kaohsiung or Gaoxiong (a city in Taiwan)

花莲[-蓮] Huālián p.w. Hualien or Hualian city in Taiwan

基隆 Jīlóng p.w. Keelung or Jilong (Taiwan) (also: Chilung)

嘉义[-義] Jiāyì p.w. Chiayi or Jiayi (Taiwan)

南投 Nántóu p.w. Nantou (Taiwan)

澎湖 Pénghú* p.w. Pescadores Islands or Penghu

屏东[-東] Píngdōng p.w. Pingtung or Pingdong (Taiwan)

台南[臺-] Táinán p.w. Tainan (a city in southern Taiwan)

台中[臺-] Táizhōng* p.w. Taichung or Taizhong (a big city in Taiwan)

桃园[-園] Táoyuán p.w. Taoyuan (Taiwan)

新竹 Xīnzhú p.w. Hsinchu or Xinzhu (Taiwan)

彰化 Zhānghuà p.w. Changhua or Zhanghua (Taiwan)

苏澳[蘇-] Sū'ào p.w. Suao (a township and a port in Taiwan)

斗六 Dǒuliù p.w. Douliou or Douliu (Taiwan)

counties (縣 (县) [xiàn]):

(Taiwan province - 臺灣省)

Taipei: see above

桃园[-園] Táoyuán p.w. Taoyuan (Taiwan)

新竹 Xīnzhú p.w. Hsinchu or Xinzhu (Taiwan)

苗栗 Miáolì p.w. Miaoli (county in Taiwan)

台中[臺-] Táizhōng* p.w. Taichung or Taizhong (a big city in Taiwan)

彰化 Zhānghuà p.w. Changhua or Zhanghua (Taiwan)

南投 Nántóu p.w. Nantou (Taiwan)

云林[雲-] Yúnlín p.w. Yunlin (county in Taiwan)

嘉义[-義] Jiāyì p.w. Chiayi or Jiayi (Taiwan)

台南[臺-] Táinán p.w. Tainan (a city in southern Taiwan)

高雄 Gāoxióng p.w. Kaohsiung or Gaoxiong (a city in Taiwan)

屏东[-東] Píngdōng p.w. Pingtung or Pingdong (Taiwan)

宜兰[-蘭] Yílán p.w. Yilan (county in Taiwan)

花莲[-蓮] Huālián p.w. Hualien or Hualian (city in Taiwan)

台东[-東] Táidōng p.w. Taitung or Taidong (county in Taiwan)

澎湖 Pénghú* p.w. Pescadores Islands or Penghu

Fujian Province (福建省)

金门[-門] Jīnmén p.w. Kinmen or Jinmen (county in Taiwan) (also: Chinmen - Wade-Giles)

连江[連-] Liánjiāng p.w. Lienchiang, Matsu or Lianjiang, Mazu, see: 马祖岛

---马祖岛[馬-島] Mǎzǔ Dǎo p.w. Matsu/Mazu Island (between TW and Mainland)

[Quest]

Our beloved skylee-jiejie is a little belligerent today. More people seem to know Canton China than Guangzhou China.

[Lu]

Atitarev, before you continue please note that Mandarin is not Taiwanese, and that Taiwanese place names would be Tai-pak, Ko-hiong, Tai-lam, Ka-gi etc. It's also not English, but romanisation. There is nothing inherently 'English' about words like Guting or Danshui.

Keelung is I believe in the same category as Peking, where j is written as k. Some (older?) form of Wade-Giles. I doubt it would be any kind of romanisation of an Aboriginal language. Same, I think, for Tsinghua and Tsingtao.

There is nothing Japanese about Matsu, it's the W-G romanisation of Mazu, a goddess from Fujian that the island was named after.

Chaxiu: the influx of tourists is supposed to consist mostly of mainland Chinese, who would presumably quickly figure out the traditional characters they need and never notice the messed-up romanisation.

[atitarev]

Lu, just to make clear I always meant Taiwanese version of Mandarin in this thread, not Minnanhua. I am also aware that names like Keelung don't render the Taiwanese Mandarin but Minnanhua. Thanks for clarifying about Matsu, I suspected that this was WG, not Japanese, wasn't so sure, they are identical in this word, anyway.

[atitarev]

As a side note does anyone know what romanisation is used for names like Tsing Tao and Tsinghua? Several Chinese websites seem to state that it's Wade Giles, however when looking at this romanisation comparison chart Tsing doesn't seem to appear anywhere.

I knew Qingdao (city) for 青岛 (Qīngdǎo) before I learned Tsin Dao (beer), I couldn't figure out why it's spelled that way, in standard Wade-Giles it would Ch'ing-Tao. I am used to it now. "Q-" may not be as intuitive without training but I prefer Qingdao for reasons I said before.

[Lu]

I am also aware that names like Keelung don't render the Taiwanese Mandarin but Minnanhua.

Where did you find that information? In Taiwanese, apparently the place is called Ke1-lang5. Not quite the same.

[atitarev]

In Taiwanese, apparently the place is called Ke1-lang5

Makes sense then - Kee-lung (lung as in English "lung", not loong)

[Lu]

Ke-lang sounds more like Kay-lang, not like Key-lang. And the English are one of the countries that never dominated Taiwan. Also, that romanisation (Ke-lang) has been around for quite some time, so if Jilong would be written in romanised Taiwanese, it would more likely read Kelang than Keelung.

Of course there is some relation, but from what I see the spelling 'Keelung' is more likely to come from romanisation of Mandarin than from romanisation of Taiwanese.

Either way I would vastly prefer Jilong. But unfortunately I have no say in such matters.

[Ah-Bin]

The Pinyinfo site is one of the best and most informative sites for Chinese sociolinguistic issues around, but remember that the guy who writes it does have an agenda (he promotes getting rid of Chinese characters and writing everything in PInyin) so he does get a little pedantic at times. I remember he complained about the way the buses in Taipei have each syllable beginning with a capital like BeiGang instead of Beigang. He doesn't like it when people write Xian instead of Xi'an either.

I wonder why people get a bee in their bonnet over things that the vast majority of Chinese don't give a stuff about.

I have seen some writers who were determined to be even more "correct" than the Chinese themselves, writing "Guomindang" and "Jiang Jieshi" even when CCP publications like the Beijing Review still use Kuomintang and Chiang Kai-shek.

Then again, it seems no-one here even knows the WG system well enough to have pointed out that this:

So, 台中 is written as Taichung. It's not obvious, which initial it is (the standard WG is Taich'ung). When it is written as Taizhong, it becomes clearer.

was wrong and "Taich'ung" would be "Daichong" in Pinyin. The correct WG is T'aichung. I suppose this goes to show that even people who are very knowledgeable about Chinese can't make head or tail of WG. Which I suppose is a good argument for getting rid of it.

I also think it's funny how people refer to anything that isn't Pinyin as "Wade-Giles" as if it is the only pre-Pinyin system around. Peking has nothing to do with "earlier forms of Wade-Giles" I am quite sure they were calling it Peking in English in 1817, the year before Sir Thomas Wade was born. Chiang Kai-shek is a representation of his name in Cantonese, so it is not WG either, as that system is exclusively for the transcription of the Mandarin dialects.

[atitarev]

was wrong and "Taich'ung" would be "Daichong" in Pinyin. The correct WG is T'aichung. I suppose this goes to show that even people who are very knowledgeable about Chinese can't make head or tail of WG. Which I suppose is a good argument for getting rid of it.

I agree I made another mistake, sorry. I know apostrophes are used for the aspirated consonants, I typed to fast and put the apostrophe in the wrong place. Yes, it should be T'aichung in standard Wade-Giles but does it matter if the correct spelling is never used? As I said even Mandarin teachers don't know and don't use it, including Taiwan.

I wonder why people get a bee in their bonnet over things that the vast majority of Chinese don't give a stuff about.

I have seen some writers who were determined to be even more "correct" than the Chinese themselves, writing "Guomindang" and "Jiang Jieshi" even when CCP publications like the Beijing Review still use Kuomintang and Chiang Kai-shek.

I would join the club of those who would prefer "Jiang Jieshi" over "Chiang Kai-shek". What's wrong with that? Not calling for renaming but providing the info on how he was called in China or Taiwan is useful, IMHO.

The Chinese people care little about this, since it's the English spelling that's affected, not the Chinese and Chinese people pronounce it the way they speak in their dialect. I don't agree that the majority don't give a stuff about it. Why bother replying? You seem very upset about something. I don't have any political agenda (like the guy in Pinyininfo).

As for Beijing, I didn't use it as an example, I only replied. I know that the original spelling wasn't based on Mandarin.