Taiwanese names and romanisation

[Ah-Bin]

That wasn't your post about Beijing/Peking being WG Atitarev, I should have made that clear.

I didn't say he had a political agenda either, just an agenda.

It also happens to be an agenda I personally support, even after spending twelve years learning how to read character-texts quickly. I'm sure if WG were the preferred standard the Pinyinfo site would promote it, as it isn't necessarily pro-Pinyin, just pro-Romanisation. Pinyin is the closest anyone has got to promoting a standard system for writing Chinese without characters, hence the support for the more widespread use of Pinyin on the site.

I just think its funny how foreigners get all upset about stuff that Chinese don't know or care about. I should qualify this by adding "the things that don't have the slightest influence on anyone's everyday life." This is especially the case for those apostrophes and capitals in Taiwan.

The reason why I don't like the spelling Jiang Jieshi is because most people don't use or econgise it still it and therefore it is confusing. Then again, people probably said that about saying Beijing to start with before it became popular.

[Lu]

Some people care about the correct use of language, spelling, punctuation and the like, a lot of people don't. The people who care get upset about things like 'its raining', the people who don't care misspell a lot. This goes for every language, not just for pinyin. That most people don't care doesn't mean the people who do care shouldn't care. Nobody is forcing you to care.

That ' in pinyin has a function: it allowes you to distinguish between xi'an and xian, li'an and lian, and not stumble over daan by giving you da'an. I am annoyed when people write Xian for the city, because it's simply wrong, as it would be if I would write Newyork.

I'm also annoyed with tone marks on the wrong vowels, like on zhongwen.com, and with CaPiTals in the middle of words, like on Taipei road signs. Both these things are eyesores, and against the rules of pinyin. There is no good reason I know of for the Taipei city gov't to go make its own rules for pinyin. I am completely with the guy behind pinyin.info on this, and when I read that site I'm always glad to find I'm not the only one who cares.

That people make mistakes in W-G doesn't mean it's not a sensible system. People make mistakes in pinyin too. And in English, for that matter, maybe we should abolish that too?

And that I don't know why it's Peking and Tsingtao, well forgive me for not knowing everything and making an educated guess. Do let us know if you know why it's Keelung not Chilung.

And atitarev, romanisation is not the same as English. 'Southern Harbour' is English, 'Nan'ao' is not.

[kaifaqu crue]

Atitarev, Yilan county (and city) is sometimes romanized as "Ilan", in case you want to update your Wenlin.

[Ah-Bin]

Some people care about the correct use of language, spelling, punctuation and the like, a lot of people don't. The people who care get upset about things like 'its raining', the people who don't care misspell a lot. This goes for every language, not just for pinyin. That most people don't care doesn't mean the people who do care shouldn't care. Nobody is forcing you to care.

Indeed, but usually the people are caring about the correct use of their own mother tongues, not caring about other people's correct uses of their own languages for them.

Also the comment that some people think Peking and Chiang Kai-shek are WG was not directed at anyone in particular. I first saw it in an encyclopaedia.

I confess my ignorance about Keelung, but I remember someone saying that under Japanese rule there was a different way to write it in characters meaning "chicken coop".

[Lu]

Indeed, but usually the people are caring about the correct use of their own mother tongues, not caring about other people's correct uses of their own languages for them.

I'm rather broad-minded in that, I care about Dutch, English and Chinese. Although not about each in the same way or in equal amounts.

[atitarev]

To me the spelling of Taiwanese names and the standardisation is affected by the fact that Hanyu Pinyin is not favoured in Taiwan and they prefer no standard or multiple standards to a standard made in mainland China. There is nothing wrong with Wade-Giles, if it were followed properly, understood and used, besides, there are few names names, like Keelung, which were created on a non-Mandarin pronunciation.

As much as I wanted foreigners to say Moskva (Москва) and Sankt-Peterburg (Санкт-Петербург) instead of Moscow and St. Petersburg, I know these 2 cities are commonly known as such. However providing the information on native spelling and pronunciation is helpful and is now used in many occasions - maps, airport displays, etc.. It doesn't mean standards don't change. Look at the majority of the Chinese (PRC) city names, which now have more or less single spelling in English. Some countries, like Moldova managed not only to change the spelling of their capital Kishinev to Chişinău (or Chisinau) but the country name itself - Moldavia -> Moldova.

The name of Georgia (country) in Chinese.

Used to be 格鲁吉亚 Gélǔjíyà, based on Russian Грузия (Gruziya)

now it's called 乔治亚 Qiáozhìyà, based on English "Georgia".

Both names have nothing to do with the Georgian name of the country: Sakartvelo.

Why do I care about how the words are written in other languages? I generally like to know and follow standards in languages. It makes to understand for myself, explain to others. Some Chinese people may say, what's the difference does it make how you spell it in English or romanise, if it should be written in Hanzi, anyway. It seems it does matter a lot to both native speakers, learners and those who just want unambiguous reference about exact names and perhaps pronunciation.

If there was a consensus on what is right when spelling Taiwanese place or personal names (meaning standard Mandarin) or they go case by case, rather than OK, we use Tonyong Pinyin, Hanyu Pinyin, Wade-Giles or my own backyard romanisation (just because I feel it's better than others ), it would be easier.

[atitarev]

Taiwan to adopt China's phonetic spelling system

Taipei - Taiwan, putting aside long-standing political considerations, said Wednesday that it is adopting China's phonetic spelling system to prevent confusion in communications with foreigners.

The cabinet said Taiwan's local and county governments must use China's Hanyu Pinyin when translating place names and road names from Chinese into Roman alphabets.

Those who refuse to follow the order would not receive subsidies for transliterating place names from the central government.

'Hanyu Pinyin is being used by the United Nations and world libraries,' Education Ministry official Chen Hsueh-yu said. 'Adopting it can make it easier for foreigners to do business or travel in Taiwan.'

So far, Taiwan has not indicated it might adopt China's simplified Chinese characters. Most people in Taiwan regard them as too simple and ugly.

And here:

From the beginning of 2009, after the government publishes a "hanyu pinyin" spelling guide and calculates the cost of switching over, signs throughout Taiwan must change, Chen said.

Then, it means, these spelling are becoming official?

http://www.pinyin.info/taiwan/place_names.html

[ai_ya]

It is probably Kee-lung and Pe-king because these spellings came about before the 'ki' [well, 'gi'] sound in Mandarin palatalized [softened] into 'ji'.

So pe-king was probably pronounced 'bei-ging' and kee-lung as 'gi-long'.

[The hard 'ki' and 'gi' sounds did not undergo palatalization in Cantonese, Taiwanese and many other dialects - although this has nothing to do with the spelling of these places, those spellings simply reflect an earlier stage of Mandarin.]

'Ji' used to sound like 'gi' [which was romanized as ki] and 'qi' used to sound like 'ki'.

Hope that helps.

[Lu]

Education Ministry official Chen Hsueh-yu said

That's good news, and about time. I just wish the guy who brings us the news could start with spelling his own name correctly.

[atitarev]

I just wish the guy who brings us the news could start with spelling his own name correctly.

Yes, I thought about this too. I didn't notice any change in spelling of ANY name talking about this change. Maybe because it's not 2009 yet?

There might be some resistance expected. Will the city names change as well? What about movies stars? I saw mentioning that with personal names there will be flexibility. IMO, there won't be too much difference, as a result of this "flexibility" but more confusion.

[Jose]

I agree with ai_ya that Keelung is likely to be based on old Mandarin rather than on Minnanhua, since it is not common (at least as far as I know) for Taiwan place names to be romanised according to the local Minnanhua .

"Keelung" is probably analogous to old spellings like "Peking", "Tao Te King", "Kirin" or "Heilungkiang". The apparent inconsistency between these spellings and those of "Ts'ingtao", "Tsinan", "T'ientsin" and "Ts'inghua" is due to the distinction between sharp (尖) and rounded (團) initials (經 vs. 精), common to some Mandarin dialects, and which was still preserved in the 1919 National Pronunciation (國音) standard (see, for example, Ping Chen's "Modern Chinese" or Ramsey's "The Languages of China").

While those "tsing" and "king" spellings are old spellings similar to the Wade-Giles system, I don't think they were used by Wade and Giles themselves. Both Wade's "Peking Syllabary" and Giles' Chinese Dictionary attempted to reproduce the Beijing pronunciation, which, I think, had already lost the sharp - rounded distinction by the end of the 19th century.

[Jose]

I'm also annoyed with tone marks on the wrong vowels, like on zhongwen.com

I also find that terribly annoying. After so many years of that site (excellent in other respects), how come all those dùis and lìus have never been corrected?

[atitarev]

It is probably Kee-lung and Pe-king because these spellings came about before the 'ki' [well, 'gi'] sound in Mandarin palatalized [softened] into 'ji'.

So pe-king was probably pronounced 'bei-ging' and kee-lung as 'gi-long'.

Keelung City (基隆) and Kinmen province (金門) also have alternative spellings based on Wade-Giles: Chilung and Chinmen. Of course, the hanyu pinyin spelling is Jilong and Jinmen, as the original spelling was Taiwanese dialect, not on Mandarin pronunciation (using Wade-Giles).

Not sure these places will be re-spelled either in 2009.

A Chinese language article about the changeover 中文譯音採漢語 不補助通用

[atitarev]

This is more interesting, with some attitudes:

EDITORIAL: Pinyin is welcome, but not coercion

Pragmatism is exactly why we would see the retention of “Taipei,” “Kaohsiung” and “Hsinchu” instead of “Taibei,” “Gaoxiong” and “Xinzhu,” and is the most sensible way to proceed in a politicized environment.

Familiarity and ease of use is more important than ideology. But more important than any of this is the principle that individuals in a free society have the right to decide how they shall be addressed. If the president turns up his nose at “Ma Yingjiu,” or if the minister of the interior curiously insists on his name being spelled Liao Liou-yi (廖了以) instead of Liao Liaoyi (despite the first two syllables being identical), or if the minister of finance is particularly attached to the given name “Sush-der” (述德) instead of “Shude,” then this should be respected.

[zhxlier]

This is not correct. Georgia is always translated as 格鲁吉亚 in mainland China. 乔治亚 is the translation of Taiwan.

The name of Georgia (country) in Chinese.

Used to be 格鲁吉亚 Gélǔjíyà, based on Russian Грузия (Gruziya)

now it's called 乔治亚 Qiáozhìyà, based on English "Georgia".

[atitarev]

Thanks for clarifying that. On the web the source (China, Taiwan, Hong Kong, etc) is not always clear, even if simplified or traditional hanzi are used.

Anyway, as I said before, neither of these 格鲁吉亚 or 乔治亚, also Russian and English have anything to do with the Georgian word for "Georgia": "Sakartvelo". I am sure some Chinese people may not even know, which one is right or its origin. 乔治亚 is also the word for the state of Georgia, USA. Of course, now there are a lot of articles about Georgian conflict but I see 乔治亚 is used quite a lot on mainland's sites as well (meaning Georgia-country, not Georgia-state).

Transliteration of foreign names into Chinese characters is another important difference between China's and Taiwan's Mandarin standards.

Sorry for the off-topic.

Edited September 22, 2008 at 11:45 PM by atitarev

[scott-chen]

I agree with you ,And I think Hanyu pinyin is more easily to recognize.And is close to the real sound of characters.

[Lu]

Pragmatism is exactly why we would see the retention of “Taipei,” “Kaohsiung” and “Hsinchu” instead of “Taibei,” “Gaoxiong” and “Xinzhu,” and is the most sensible way to proceed in a politicized environment.

I read that article, and completely disagree with this part. Seriously, who outside of Taiwan has ever heard of Xinzhu or even Gaoxiong, as compared to Beijing or Guangzhou? Sure, it will hurt for a little while, but if you want to change romanization to a sensible system, then go sensible all the way and be consistent. (The Taipei Times itself is also not consistent in its pinyin, spelling Xian instead of Xi'an, and similar mistakes.)

And let that consistancy extend to people's names. Here I can agree that it might be necessary to gradually phase out the old system, because it might hurt people's career in ways, and anyway in 80 years or so everyone's name will be in pinyin. In this respect people are different from cities. As to babies, parents will first and foremost care about which characters the name consists of, and I think the government has every right to make a law on how those characters are to be romanized.

Keelung City (基隆) and Kinmen province (金門) (...) Not sure these places will be re-spelled either in 2009.

I'm not optimistic. (BTW Jinmen is a county in Fujian province, not a province in its own right, it's a bit too small for that.)

[atitarev]

Interesting that it's mainly the West including the expats in Taiwan, which are more concerned about fixing the Roman spelling and prefer pinyin but it's the local Taiwanese who oppose. Knowing how it took for this change and why hanyu pinyin wasn't favoured, it may really be difficult to change.

[atitarev]

I agree with you ,And I think Hanyu pinyin is more easily to recognize.And is close to the real sound of characters.

This part is actually arguable. You and I are more used to Hanyu Pinyin, others are more used to other systems but Hanyu Pinyin is the most commonly used, there are many resources and instructions that's why it's better understood.