Modal Verbs 会 and 能 vs. Resultative Suffix 得了 and 不了

[Entropy_Rising]

Hi all,

I know searching archives for previous discussion of the topic at hand is important at this forum, but I was unable to come up with anything searching specifically for the Hanzi "得了" and "不了", and I also looked at the sticky in this forum and while there's a topic on 可以，会，能 and there's a topic on the particle 了， I haven't found anything specifically on my issue - the one in the title.

Basically, I was wondering if anyone could help explain to me the differences in usage between the modal verbs 会 and 能 vs the resultative suffixes 得了 and 不了. In English, I think both the verbs and the suffixes are used to express "can" or "be able to" and their opposites. However, scarred by the order and manner by which I started learning Mandarin, whenever I speak Chinese I always use 会 and 能 (whose differences I think I have a pretty good grasp on) to represent the idea of ability - but with the goal of wanting to speak more natural Chinese I want to start using 得了 and 不了. I just don't know when to use either - and I'm sure just haphazardly replacing the modal verbs with the resultative suffix isn't the best approach.

So for example, in my little grammar guidebook, (Modern Mandarin Chines Grammar - Claudia Ross and Jing-heng Sheng Ma), one example for the resultative suffix is:

今天的功课这么多，我做不了。

There is so much homework today. I can't do it.

If I were out and about and wanted to express such a concept with my (admittedly bad) Mandarin, I would probably instead say 我不能做 or 我不能做完.

Another example -

他很聪明，一定做得了这件事情.

He is very smart, he certainly is able to take care of this matter.

Again, if I were in a conversation and wanted to express this meaning, with my currently resultative-suffix-less Mandarin I'd probably end up saying 他一定能解决这件事情。

我用不了筷子

My incomplete Mandarin skills: 我不会用筷子 or 我不能用筷子

这是他的个性，他改不了

With my incomplete Mandarin: 他不会改变自己 or 他不能改变

So can anyone help a guy make his Chinese a bit more natural and explain why in the above situations, the resultative suffixes are better, and in other situations the actual modal verbs are better? Thanks!

[L-F-J]

how much reading and listening do you do?

i didnt bother studying grammar too much. especially after a certain point in chinese its just a matter of vocabulary acquisition.

so, i cant really explain the grammatical differences so clearly, but i know the meaning and usage of each. the problem is i know it, but not exactly in english. rather its more of an abstract sense of knowing. which really doesnt make a difference to me, for learning, understanding and speaking. but maybe for teaching purposes thats not a good thing.

anyhow, sorry. maybe some other people will have a better answer. i would just like to give the advice of reading and listening more so you contact them more often. that way you'll become familiar with them and not have to ask.

but then, i dont know if you want to become a chinese teacher at some point in your future. but for me i just want to speak and understand chinese.

and i dont think learning this will make your chinese any more natural. your other sentences are fine. there's just a subtle difference in feeling.

[roddy]

I wouldn't want to swear on this in a court of law, but having read the examples and thought about it for twenty seconds, I'd say that 得了/不了 are more likely to be used for a specific case, rather than a general case. Ie - I can't do this today, I don't have time, VS I can't do this at all, I don't know how. Note in the examples - you have 'today' and 'this matter'.

[HashiriKata]

having read the examples and thought about it for twenty seconds, I'd say that 得了/不了 are more likely to be used for a specific case, rather than a general case.

I think you're half way there, Roddy. Come on, spend a bit more than twenty seconds and you'll find that it's worth the extra time!

[Altair]

I think Chinese distinguishes between process and result more systematically than English. 得了/不了 is just a special case of the potential complements, like 听得懂 or 跳不过去. These structures do not focus on your ability to engage in the process, but on your ability to achieve a result through the process. I think that this focus on results is what gives the feel of applying to a "specific case."

Here are some translations that try to draw out what I believe to be the distinctions in the Chinese.

今天的功课这么多，我做不了

Today's homework is so much, I can't get it done.

(Doing some (i.e., engaging in the process 做功课) is not the problem, and that is why 不 negates 了, rather than 做.

今天的功课这么多，我不能做

Today's homework is so much, I can't engage in doing it.

(What can't be done is homework, given that there is so much today.)

他很聪明，一定做得了这件事情.

He's smart, he is sure to be able to get this done. (i.e., he can do it to conclusion).

我用不了筷子

I can't use chopsticks successfully, (but maybe can use them to make a mess.)

我不会用筷子

I don't have the skill to use chopsticks ( but have no problem doing other things with them).

我不能用筷子

I am not in a position to use chopsticks (but may or may not have the skill to use them)

这是他的个性，他改不了

That's his personality, if he went to change anything, it would lead nowhere.

他不会改变自己

He will not change himself (I am not sure of this, but that is what I think this means).

or (perhaps less likely)

He does not have the skill to change himself.

他不能改变

He is not in a position to change it.

[renzhe]

会 doesn't really belong into the mix because it indicates a learned skill, while 能, 可以 and the potential complement 了 express ability to perform something.

Here is what the New Practical Chinese Reader says about this:

"V+得/不+下" indicates whether or not a given space is able to contain a certain number of amount of things. The verbs frequently used in this construction are: 站，坐，睡， 停，放，住.

“V＋得/不+了" indicates whether or not a motion or action may occur. (In general, the verb " 了" can only be used as a potential complement). Sometimes the verb "了" expresses the same idea as "完".

"V+得/不+动" shows whether or not a motion or action has caused a person or object to change its original position.

Note: The optative verbs "能" and "可以" express possibilities. However, when expressing the idea of being unable to do something because of a lack of certain subjecive or objective conditions, one usually uses the potential complements but not optative verbs. For example,

小孩搬不动这个花盆. (You cannot say: XXX ”小孩不能搬这个大花盆")

这儿声音太大，我听不见. (You cannot say: XXX 这儿声音太大，我不能听见")

When expressing the idea that the speaker himself/herself does have the ability to do something, or a condition permits someone to do something, one can use either the optative verb or the potential complement. The optative verb is used more frequently. For example:

我学过英语， 我能翻译. (我学过英语，我翻译得了.)

今天天气很好，能去. (今天天气很好，去得了.)

你不用帮助我，我自己能搬. (你不用帮助我，我自己伴的动.)

When requesting that a particular movement or action take place, or when dissuading someone from moving or acting, one can only use an optative verb. The potental complement cannot be used. For example:

外边刮风了，你不能出去。 (You cannot say: XXX “外边刮风了，你出不去。)

But I agree with the posters who say that when the grammar gets this specific, it's best to develop a feeling for it through lots of exposure. It's not always logical, and the native speakers don't know why they say it the way they do either.