Grammar and sentence structure explanation needed

[skylee]

1B)

in this case does the word 那 in the beginning of the second phrase refer to the birthday party? Basicly "On saturday we'll have birthday party preparation" ("Birthday party we saturday have a preparation")? Could 那 be placed on somewhere else in the second sentence, or if it were replaced with 生日晚会 could it then be placed for example in the end of the sentence?

Here, 那 is the short form of 那麽, which translates to "then".

2)

时间过得真快

This is propably a fixed phrase? What function 得 has in this sentence? Does it mean something itself or is it used together with 过 to form some new meaning or change meaning of 过 some how?

No, it is not a fixed phrase. Take a look at this thread -> Grammar #3 的得地

[Sebasti]

Here, 那 is the short form of 那麽, which translates to "then".

is that 那麽 same with 那末?

Could 再 be used in this case to indicate "then" aswell?

[renzhe]

I could as well say 开一个生日晚会 but in these cases the 一 can simply be dropped out?

Yes, the 一 was simply dropped.

那麽 = traditional form of 那么. Think of this "那" as "then", "if that's the case, then...". It connects the previous sentence with the current one.

- We're having a party on Sunday

- Then we'll have to prepare on Saturday.

Could 再 be used in this case to indicate "then" aswell?

No, because 再 is used when you perform one action immediately after another one. The "then" here is not temporal (you can't prepare on Saturday AFTER you have the party on Sunday), it has the meaning "well, then...", or "if that is so, then..."

And 得 is the particle that connects a verb with an adjective (V + 得 + Adj), where the adjective describes the verb.

You should read the link skylee posted for more information.

[Sebasti]

Thanks again guys for very helpful answers

那麽 = traditional form of 那么.

how 那末 compares to above? My dictionary indicates 那末 also means "then"

Then yet again new questions:

1)

来不及吧，会迟到的"maybe there's not enough time. you will be late"

Does 吧 indicate "maybe" as well as many other things?

Why there is 的 in the end? It feels more like something that should have 吧 or 了to me. Can someone explain?

2)

上课来得及 vs 九点上课

I've understood that time needs to be before the verb. However in first case the verb is before time indication. Does 来得及 and 莱不及 grammaticaly differ from other time indications such as date, time of clock?

[renzhe]

how 那末 compares to above? My dictionary indicates 那末 also means "then"

那末 is more spoken, and only has the meaning of "then". 那么 can also mean "that", for example: "那么多!?", meaning "THAT much?!"

But don't take my word for it, I'm not 100% sure here.

来不及 and 来得及 are phrases using complements, so you should look into that in your grammar book or search on here. It's a bit strange that a textbook would introduce these concepts, translate them, and not explain the grammar behind them, to be honest. Another common example is "听不懂", "I can't understand".

They mean "there's no time" and "there's still time". So they are not indications of time, they don't tell you WHEN something happens, they describe the action. That's why they don't come at the beginning.

吧 here is a question particle you use when you are unsure that something is a certain way and are asking for a confirmation.

来得及吗? = Is there enough time? (you don't know, you're asking)

来得及吧? = There's enough time, right? (you suspect this is the case, but want confirmation)

[Sebasti]

Thank you for all the help again. I will return soon with more newbie questions:P

[Sebasti]

I've returned to my chinese studies and I have some more questions with help needed.

1) 什么时候发的 what time did you send it

Why there's 的 in the end of the sentence? Can it be used to indicate the known "it", object that has already been mentioned?

2) 我的邮箱是正常的

Why not 我的邮箱很正常， since "normal" is adjective as far as i understand? What is the meaning of 的 in end of this sentence

3)邮件地址错了

Why 很 not needed in this one? it goes directly from noun to adjective without any linking word?

[renzhe]

1) It's basically a 是。。。的 sentence. The 是 part is dropped.

邮件是什么时候发的?

2) Again, it's the 是。。。的 structure.

3) 错了 means that there was a mistake. Think of it more as a verb. You're not saying that the address was very wrong (地址很错), but that there was a mistake with the address. (I'm not sure whether it means it was written wrong or delivered to the wrong place, or both)

[skylee]

These threads might be helpful ->

Grammar #2 是。。。的

Grammar #3 的得地

Grammar #4 了

[creamyhorror]

3)邮件地址错了

Why 很 not needed in this one? it goes directly from noun to adjective without any linking word?

错 is used as a verb here, but it can also be used as an adjective. However, it is a non-gradable adjective (you can't specify how wrong something is with it), so instead of the 很~ pattern, you have to use the 是~的 pattern. Therefore: 邮件地址是错的。

Edited July 16, 2008 at 04:56 PM by creamyhorror

[dsrguru]

邮件是什么时候发的?

The 是……的 construction is most commonly used to describe events that happened in the past. The format is generally subject followed by 是 followed by the adverbial phrase you want to draw attention to followed by verb followed by 的 optionally followed by object.

For example, if you wanted to say "Did you study mathematics last year?" you would have two options since the English phrasing of the question is ambiguous. If the question were whether or not the person studied last year (i.e. "Last year, did you study mathematics?"), you could say "你去年念了數學嗎？" An affirmative answer could be "念了，去年我念了數學。" If the focus of the question were not if the person studied last year but rather if it was last year that the person studied (i.e. "Was it last year when you studied mathematics?"), you would use the 是……的 construction. You could say "你是去年念的數學嗎？“ An affirmative answer could be "是，我是去年念的數學。" The adverbial phrase framed between 是 and the verb that precedes 的 is the focus of the question or statement. Thus "邮件是什么时候发的？" means "When was the mail sent?" and could be answered by "邮件是前天发的" meaning "The mail was sent out the day before yesterday."

Edited July 17, 2008 at 05:40 PM by dsrguru
typo

[creamyhorror]

You could say "你是去年念的數學嗎？“ An affirmative answer could be "是，我是去年念的數學。"

While I agree with your post, these two sentences should be 你是去年念数学的吗？ and 是，我是去年念数学的。 Another possible response is 是的。

[dsrguru]

Yes, 是的 is fine too, although I didn't want to add more confusion to the mix. As for putting 的 at the end of the sentence rather than between the verb and the object, FSI has this to say about it:

In the Peking dialect of Standard Chinese' date=' which is the model for grammatical patterns presented in this course, the -[u']de[/u] of a shi...de construction comes between the verb and its object. The object, therefore, is outside the shi...de construction. Compare "I studied here" with "I studied English here":

Wǒ shi zài zhèr xuéde.

Wǒ shi zài zhèr xuéde Yīngwén.

However, you may hear some Standard Chinese speakers who place the object inside the shi...de construction.

The public domain edition of the FSI course is close to 30 years old. Has this changed and is it more common now to place the object inside the 是……的 construction?

[creamyhorror]

Yes, 是的 is fine too, although I didn't want to add more confusion to the mix. As for putting 的 at the end of the sentence rather than between the verb and the object, FSI has this to say about it:

That's very interesting. For some reason, I don't remember ever being taught (or hearing) the 的 before the object, but I didn't really focus on Chinese, and I was educated in Singapore, which may have a different standard usage in this aspect. (Although our curriculum aims to be aligned with official Beijing standards, I think.) I checked with another book and a native speaker, and it appears that you're right. It's just Singaporeans who don't use that structure I guess. The native speaker (from Nanchang) did say that 的 before the object was a bit oral, although acceptable.

[dsrguru]

OK, thanks. 你在新加坡念书念了多久？

[creamyhorror]

OK, thanks. 你在新加坡念书念了多久？

11 years in school. Never quite got to the level of other speakers though.

I'm still curious if anyone finds this usage unacceptable (like another overseas Chinese guy I know did, but I don't know where he's from).

[dsrguru]

Cool, I would imagine you're pretty fluent then. Come to think of it, I could have made my post fully Chinese with "好，谢谢。你在新加坡念书念了多久？" My knowledge of written Chinese is extremely limited (as is my speaking ability). Should there have been a comma or some form of punctuation after 念书 and before 念了多久? I think I pause a little between the two when speaking.

Does anyone, preferably a native speaker, know whether 的 in 是……的 should go after the verb or at the end of the sentence in proper modern Mandarin?

[xiaocai]

I think both putting the "的" before and after the object are acceptable, though the former way sounds a bit more natural to my ear.

[dsrguru]

xiaocai: Thanks, that confirms what FSI said. Which country are you from?

creamyhorror: Assuming xiaocai is not from Singapore, your theory is probably correct.

[xiaocai]

China.

Neither have we been taught in school that which one is more correct, so I can't guarantee you that my answer is 100% grammatically accurate. It could just be my personal preference.