longer term expat - pros/cons

[ABCinChina]

Looks like the ultimate optimist on being a long-term expat in China is simonlaing while the ultimate pessimist is lilongyue. I'm sure we all have our reasons for being here and I'm sure we all see that we have an advantage here when compared to Chinese nationals. We're all treated like Kings here and no doubt enjoying it! And though I'm pessimistic at times, I try to be as optimistic as possible. After all, studies show that optimistic people live longer lives!

[lilongyue]

. . . the ultimate pessimist is lilongyue.

Haha, I think of myself as more of a realist. Nearly everything I wrote in my post is fact: the number of dead from pollution is from a World Bank sponsored study; the New York Times mentions China's water shortage problem, and so did Jared Diamond (also in "Collapse" where he said Beijing has 5 years of water left), in fact China is building a massive system to pump water from southern China to the North, environmental effects of that should be interesting to see; the corruption is no secret, and while sometimes it works in our favors, it can also be used to f*** with us, or at best means law is ultimately unreliable, truly a double edged sword. The only things in my post that require a leap of faith are the possible outcomes of current events, and my guesses about how Chinese will react.

It will be interesting to see what happens to Taiwan. I'm very fond of Taiwan, and hope it can retain its independence. While it's definitely true that China is growing more powerful, and America weaker (at least economically), I think this being the case will make Washington more interested in keeping up the Cold War buffers it has around China, including Taiwan. My friend who is buying the land is in his 50s, and so isn't thinking much about 30 years from now. Were I in a position to buy a home in Asia, I don't think Taiwan would be my first choice simply because of the political issues that surround it. However, any place I was looking to settle down would have to include the land, and not just the home/apartment sitting on the land. This would be true were I looking to buy a house in the States, too. Not interested in owning a condo in a city.

[outcast]

there's no guarantee that if things ever go bad you won't loose your house, or company.

Unfortunately in the US it isn't much better, although it would take an emergency to do it, it is not impossible.

But it is starting to sound like everywhere is going to get f****ed in some way or another in the next 50 years. Well, I guess it's off to Mars.

But really, this whole issue of resource depletion is why we should have invested more in our space program over the last 20 years than we have.

[Lu]

It will be interesting to see what happens to Taiwan. I'm very fond of Taiwan, and hope it can retain its independence. While it's definitely true that China is growing more powerful, and America weaker (at least economically), I think this being the case will make Washington more interested in keeping up the Cold War buffers it has around China, including Taiwan. My friend who is buying the land is in his 50s, and so isn't thinking much about 30 years from now. Were I in a position to buy a home in Asia, I don't think Taiwan would be my first choice simply because of the political issues that surround it.

I think the realistic worst-case scenario for Taiwan is not an all-out invasion by China followed by radical re-allocation of land, but more likely a gradual sellout by the KMT, in which case Taiwan would become a bit like Hong Kong and the situation would still be relatively secure for at least 50 years, as long as you don't go into open opposition against the government.

Whatever you do, just don't give up your passport.

[simonlaing]

It is possible to buy property in China. And the property will usually be protected unless the government wants to building a gov't building there.

I source Chinalawblog.com lawyer Dan Harris,

Foreigners who have been legal residents for two years can buy one

residential property. There are all sorts of exceptions to this, but this

is the basic rule for non HK and non-Taiwan foreigners. The 70 year thing

comes from the fact that nobody really owns their residence in China; they

have 70 year use rights. This does NOT mean your property cannot be torn

down tomorrow for a government building, however.

I do not know the marriage laws very well, but I think that even if you are

married you still have to be a legal resident for at least two years before

you can own property. The problem is that everyone will let you buy it; it

only becomes difficult when you try to sell it.

Lilongue brings up the US embassy, but most embassies are very limited in what they can do in the country. The final result was a fair judgement. (Yes having guanxi is important, but generally us westerners are protected from most things that happen to people).

Putting yourself drunk at bars with belligerent people you can find trouble, (as one would find in most countries).

I agree there are a lot of let us scare you China books out there, about when water runs out, the trade barriers go up etc.. But China seems fairly practical about a lot of issues. Dealing with the earthquake as fast and transparently as they did was impressive.

Anyway I see a lot of optimism in the people and country. (I worry about xenophobia as well but generally things seem ok.) Nanjing people might be more pro foreigners cause we saved a lot of them in World war 2.

talk to you later,

Simon:)

[adrianlondon]

Dealing with the earthquake as fast and transparently as they did was impressive.

If they allow open discussion about why so many schools collapsed, then I'll agree with you.

This is another of those things about being an expat; I like the Western model of discusions and trying to work out what happened and why. China's method is to fix it and move on to something else. They both have their pro's and con's, but (probably because of where I was born and raised), they're far from being equal in my mind ;)

[lilongyue]

Looking back over this thread, it seems that a sense of security is an important factor for me when considering where to settle down for the long haul, and that others acquire that same sense of security in different ways. China gives me no sense of security, I guess it does for simonlaing.

If the response to the earthquake was the norm and not an exception (and an exception it is, and we need to think about why . . . could it be the Olympics?) China would give me a greater sense of security. If the corruption that allowed those people to build some crappy buildings wasn't the norm, but an exception, I would also feel safer here. Speaking of crappy buildings, an office near my classroom caught fire the other weekend, and burned up everything inside. Standing at the blackened doorway, I can see through the ceiling, and into the classroom above. I had thought the floor I sat on every day in class was concrete, but apparently not if a fire can burn through it. Should there ever be an earthquake here in Hangzhou while I'm in class, I'm as good as dead.

Nanjing people might be more pro foreigners cause we saved a lot of them in World war 2.

Unless you're Japanese, and this is related to my other point. As the Commie government takes it upon itself to be to sole dispenser of morality, and it sees nothing wrong with bigotry and racism, it allows the media to reinforce and inflate people's hate. Chinese opinion of foreigners can change very quickly, and when it does and combines with mob mentality - which has a special place here in China, seeing as it has the largest population of any country, as well as being ultra-nationalistic, not to mention that intense cultural pressure to conform and do things for your country (these last two and self-reinforcing) - you have what happened recently with the Carrefour boycotts, and the American boy that was beaten. French used to be a golden child in China's eyes, and I certainly never heard anything bad about Germany, until members of their respective governments made a stand for those people from that Western Chinese province. Carrefour is lucky that Chinese didn't attack the stores and bust up the windows, etc., like they did Japanese restaurants in various cities a while back. The French should also be lucky that other French products haven't also been targeted, like all that BS a few years back about that Japanese brand of make-up. I was in Hong Kong at that time, and they never pulled any of that make-up off the shelves (sorry forget the name right now), and even after the complete recall in the Mainland, they eventually had to admit that the make-up actually was safe. As soon as I heard about the recall, I knew exactly what was going on.

Anyhoo, I think I've stated my opinions and reasons clearly enough. For those who have a sense of security in China, enjoy!

[cdn_in_bj]

Though I'm not quite as outspoken, I actually side more closely with lilongyue. While I'm currently enjoying my stay here and I can see positive changes on several fronts, there is still a ways to go in many areas and I'm prepared to move back home if things take a turn for the worse. I can tell people that I see myself staying here for the next 5 years or so, but anything longer than that would just be a wild guess. I've mentioned before that I feel it's important for expats to have a contingency plan, and this includes keeping financial reserves abroad as well. You may love China, but does China really love you?

[simonlaing]

I've mentioned before that I feel it's important for expats to have a contingency plan,

Of course China is still technically a 3rd world country with some poor people and like any 3rd world country crazy things could theoretically happen here. You shouldn't cut off your ties with your home country or stop talking to your family.

But China is not India where in poorer cities beggars with pull at your clothes after you step off the train and follow you 4 blocks to your hotel.

Nor is the Middle east where women can't wear tank tops or shorts and alcohol can be difficult to buy.

It is not like several South or Central American countries where being kidnapped is common.

For all the beauty of Europe and the US there are neighborhoods that are dangerous to go to at night, which I haven't found yet in China. (perhaps I should travel more). In France you could get your car burned over night .

The US will bounce back from the real estate bust though it will still have an addiction to borrowing it will have to deal with.

France and most of Europe have the mistaken idea that if they can keep the immigrants out of their country that will solve all their socialist safety net problems and they can still have a great country that makes nothing but tourism, nuclear reactors and organic farm products. And what's with these unions that when they strike they must stop traffic and disrupt other people's lives?

China's banks and post offices are open from 8:30 to 5;30 or 6 ,Monday to sunday with 24 hour service in some for extra fees. France Monday to Friday close at 4 and at lunch time (for most of them). Saturdays for an hour or 3 . Sunday's forget about it. Most of Europe is like that. 35 hour weeks. 8 weeks a year vacation. Paris except for tourism shuts down in August.

Yes China has nationalism, but going into a store with a mob protesting outside it, and asking you not to go in , is something you can avoid.

The racism even to Japanese in Nanjing is not so huge. It comes in when you ask them who to marry, Not a japanese and not a black man as our babies would be black. (Which is racist but not British Football Hooligan violent racist).

Yes I feel more secure china, not just physically, but also that the economy and society is progressing quickly. Social norms are generally respectful of others and females(with the odd nationalism outburst) and the country doesn't feel like it is regressing like France.

Yes I have stuck my foot in it. But make your comparisions.

What happenned with the repercussions of Katrina?

not so deep, thoughts,

SImon:)

[Lu]

I had thought the floor I sat on every day in class was concrete, but apparently not if a fire can burn through it. Should there ever be an earthquake here in Hangzhou while I'm in class, I'm as good as dead.

Concrete is not necessarily very safe in an earthquake. Wood is the best, I think, as it bends and doesn't break.

[outcast]

American boy that was beaten.

When and where did that happen? I haven't been following the news much recently.......

US there are neighborhoods that are dangerous to go to at night

The gang problem in the US is really getting out of hand, and in many places the gangs have been spreading out into suburbia like a cancer.

mob mentality

China doesn't have the monopoly on mob mentalities, nationalism, or any of that. The US invaded another country, and mob mentality had a big hand in letting it happen.

EDIT: You know, come to think of it we can make a quick comparison of our (the American) boycott of French products and China's recent calls for a boycott: Ours lasted for several months and did significant, measurable economic damage to certain French industries (especially tourism), the chinese attempt at a boycott fell apart within just a couple of weeks and, according to Carrefour's recent sales figures, was immensely ineffective. Just some food for thought.

[liuzhou]

Quote:American boy that was beaten.

When and where did that happen? I haven't been following the news much recently.......

It didn't. See here.

[lilongyue]

Hmm, maybe I do deserve the "most pessimistic" title after all! Glad to hear that the boy wasn't hurt.