Chinese as a 3rd language- Anyone else in the same boat?

[my3rdlang]

I am bilingual in English and Indonesian. Indonesian is my mother tongue, and English became my other main language after immigrating to Australia at 4. A few years later, I went back to Indonesia. During my teenage years, I attended schools in both Australia and USA. To make a long story short, my Indonesian and English pronunciations are hardly influenced by each other.

I took Chinese language courses in high school and uni (age 16-19 with some gaps in between). After a few years of neglecting Chinese, I decided to continue studying Chinese in Shanghai (age 22). I have been in Shanghai for almost a year now. Even though I have had considerable improvements in reading and writing, my foreign accent is still very heavy. On top of frequently using the wrong tones, my Chinese pronunciation is heavily influenced by English and Indonesian.

I find it impossible to get rid of my accent so my goal is just to reduce it. To those of you who are learning Chinese as a 3rd language, what do you consider realistic in terms of demands on your pronunciation?

[yonglin]

To those of you who are learning Chinese as a 3rd language, what do you consider realistic in terms of demands on your pronunciation?

I fail to see how this is related to whether you learn Chinese as a 2nd, 7th or 58th language. What demands you can put on pronunciation is probably more related to your age, talent and studiousness.

Personally, I've kind of given up on ever sounding like a native speaker. To accomplish this, I think you would have to spend a considerable amount of time in China (perhaps one year if you're very talented, two if you're deadly like the rest of us), something I probably won't manage whilst at a reasonably young age.

That said, I've met foreigners with very good, reasonable and really bad accents. Given this variation, I've come to think that it very much to do with your personal aspirations, although people speaking other tonal Asian langauges (e.g., Vietnamese, Thai) might have an advantage.

[Scoobyqueen]

In my expererience the more languages you speak fluently, the easier it will be to assimilate a new language in terms of sounds and intonation. It is a plus having grown up as a bilingual speaker. Some academic studies supports this hypothesis: Bilingual speakers on their third language (or first foreign language), does not need to go through the process of "how to learn a language" and can focus on other aspects of the language.

How "native" you will ultimately sound depends, as Yonglin said, on talent: The ability to listen and detect nuances in a language and reproduce these accurately. A good indicator as to whether someone is talented is how well he or she can detect patters in the accents of the foreign language they are learning, both at the pronuncation and the intonation level (Simple English examples: American/Irish pronunciation of "r", Australian tendendy to use a questioning intonation, British pronuncation of t between two vowels (but these are just very basic examples). This understanding can be a useful tool that also serves to able to correct yourself as it were.

There is more you can do. One method is recording yourself speaking the language. You need a native recording and you would basically just replicate that until you sound the same. This might train your ear comparing yourself with a native as well as helping you make a conscious effort to change your pronunciation. Some other people here in these forums have advocated this method.

I have seen some good books on Chinese linguistics detailing where the sounds are formed. They might be useful too.

[rezaf]

although people speaking other tonal Asian langauges (e.g., Vietnamese, Thai) might have an advantage.

No, it's much more difficult for them. The Vietnamese students in our school work very hard and they are quick learners but they are never able to speak fluent Putonghua. At best they speak it with something like a Cantonese accent.

I think that you should use your Chinese doing business and such things. The few days that I spent with brokers looking for an apartment helped me a lot. As long as it's a polite and friendly discussion, it's just the first tone, the second tone and etc. Friendly conversations don't bring your feelings to the surface. You should use it in haggling and arguing.

[renzhe]

To those of you who are learning Chinese as a 3rd language, what do you consider realistic in terms of demands on your pronunciation?

I think that a realistic goal which most learners should pursue, is having a correct pronunciation which can easily be understood by a native speaker without problems or irritation. This means no heavy accent, but if people notice you're foreign, it's not the end of the world. I think that everyone can reach this, though it will be far easier for some people than others.

An unrealistic goal is to speak so perfectly that you're indistinguishable from a native speaker. Very few people ever approach this level, even people with immeasurable talent after decades of study. You can get VERY close, and this should be your goal. The people who are capable of reaching native-level pronunciation will do so without extra effort, IMHO.

In your case, it sounds like you could use some pronunciation tutoring before you get the bad habits so ingrained that you can't drop them anymore.

[Scoobyqueen]

I think you can reach a level that sounds like a native but you need to work hard and have talent. In fact in my experience the best way to sound like a native is to adopt an accent from the region where you live as a foreigner. That will "fool" most natives apart from the people whose accent you are imitating.

A case in point are footballers who move to play for a team in another country. They often end up just mimicking the local accent within that country. Due to not learning the new language properly through formal education, they probably use the baby approach and just mimick.

[renzhe]

Of course it's possible.

It's just my experience that the vast majority of people who are convinced that they have an accent indistinguishable from native will get figured out in about 1 minute of conversation and asked where they're from.

There are so many nuances that people can pick up on. I've only ever met a tiny number of people who I couldn't figure out from a native, and they all spent many years living in the country.

Fooling the natives is very, very hard.

[Scoobyqueen]

Well I guess if you are a westerner there is no chance of ever being mistaken for being Chinese in a face to face encounter anyway:)

When you sound like a native, you know because people typically ask you, "I cant quite place your accent, where abouts in China/Germany/France etc are you from?"

[atitarev]

Well I guess if you are a westerner

Some Indonesians may be taken for Chinese. See 1st post.

Anyone else in the same boat?

Plenty of people.

[calibre2001]

It's not enough to sound native. One must be able to twist, manipulate and phrase as natives do in order to truly fool one. And that involves grasping much of the subtleties and the culture. Just too much work involved...

And what's wrong with Mandarin with a regional accent?? They're all accented anyway.

[yonglin]

Fooling the natives is very, very hard.

I really think this on the language, and - for in-person encounters - what you expect a native speaker to look like. For instance, I knew a German guy who came to Sweden at the age of 20, and when I met him in his late 20s, he spoke Swedish better perfectly without an accent, all the twists and turns, and far better vocabulary than most Swedish speakers. I would never have figured out he was German had I not known.

If it weren't for the fact that westerners don't look like Chinese, I think that we would greatly be able to benefit from the fact that Chinese - just like English - has many regional varieties. Say, for a British person, being a native English speaker doesn't necessarily mean that you use all the local slang - you could be (or speak like) an American or Canadian and would of course still pass as a native speaker. Foreigners with Asian features - given that they speak Chinese well - might be taken to come from some peripheral province or belong to some obscure minority (unless they obviously dress like Americans/Koreans, of course...)

[Long Zhiren]

Get involved with something like Toastmasters.

As soon as the constructive criticisms die-down as to whether our n-th language is comprehensible, we have done a reasonably excellent job.

My goal is never to sound like a native. The more reasonable goal is to be understood clearly and well. We have to pick and choose as to whether our n-th language is taken to this next level. It's a lot of effort.

[rezaf]

And what's wrong with Mandarin with a regional accent?? They're all accented anyway.

Local accents give your words more energy and more feeling and trying to sound like a local makes is easier to speak and you'll make less effort in thinking about the tones. I enjoy Shanghaihua's boldness in my Mandarin. Standard Mandarin is boring.

[msittig]

1. English 2. Spanish 3. Mandarin (with a Shanghai accent)

Get involved with something like Toastmasters.

This is a great idea. When Chinese people ask me how to find foreigners to practice their English with, I always stress that the best way to not annoy people with requests for language practice and to fool yourself into learning a language without trying is by distracting yourself and others with another activity, whether it be joining a club, getting a job, taking up a hobby, etc.

I just went to my first Toastmasters club meeting (lots of chapters in Shanghai) last week (coincidence, I swear) and it was great fun. The Zhangjiang chapter even has an alternating "Chinese/English week" format that makes it a mutually beneficial deal: one week I get a Chinese work-out, the next week I help people with their English, and we all learn public speaking and leadership skills in the process.

And what's wrong with Mandarin with a regional accent?? They're all accented anyway.

Preach it. Just make sure you've got a grounding in Standard Mandarin first.

[accountant]

If you find it necessary, put on the news anchor accent. That's the standard form recognised nationwide. Though I can hardly imagine one speaks that way conversationally. Speaking from my experiences, neither it nor the Beijing dialect are perceived as prestigious as they may seemingly be. Some would fake an accent of Taiwan or Hong Kong, presumably due to the economically superior association. At this point, I must express my admiration of any effort one puts into simulating a Cantonese accent. It's genuinely difficult. For example, Shanghainese-born entertainer Yumiko Cheng relocated to Hong Kong in her late teen years. Now 27, she speaks Mandarin like a Cantonese with a poor command of the national dialect, which supposedly she started learning since primary school. It’s wicked not only the way she mispronounces, but also the manipulation of her intonation pattern, authentically Cantonese styled. That's what I call a genius.

[atitarev]

Rezaf and Accountant, I don't agree with you. There's nothing boring about the standard accent. This must be to do with your locations.