terminology in exercise/qigong

[kaox0018]

Can anyone explain these? terms in question are underlined.

手握空拳, 兩食指微彎豎立

Close the hands into a hollow fist (as if holding an egg) and slightly bend both index fingers ?

(以意導氣) →吸氣時，氣從後腦往頭前額送

(??? ) When inhaling, send the breath from the back of the head (cerebellum) to the forehead,

武動乾坤

no idea

thanks. trying to read directions to qigong.

[bamboo]

I think you got the first sentence translated more or less correctly.

手握空拳, 兩食指微彎豎立

Close the hands into a hollow fist (as if holding an egg) and slightly bend both index and middle fingers ?I am also taking Taichi and QiGong classes. I get my 師傅 to write everything down. Even then the translation is not good unless I videotape the whole session!

(以意導氣) →吸氣時，氣從後腦往頭前額送 (??? ) When inhaling, send the breath from the back of the head (cerebellum) to the forehead武動乾坤

I think the problem here is that you must have some definite words you want to use to translate "special terms" in Qigong like: 氣 , 意念 etc . You can do this by reading some books on Taichi/Qigong in English. 以意導氣: This should be translated something like this: "Using intention or the mind (意) to direct celestial energy". To use the word breath would be misleading because the Chinese in Qigong separate the idea of 氣 from the air we breath. And I am sure this is not talking about directing 'air' from the back of the head to the front. We breath into our lungs!

In QiGong you imagine that you have this ability to direct this "celestial energy" which is all around us like it was a force of some sort just by using your intentional mind or will power. Have you seen Star Wars the movie? Well the Jedi knights have some sort of ability to channel 'the force' through their laser swords. It is the same sort of idea here. So 吸氣 just means to draw energy or pull this energy from the back of the head channeling it to the front forehead. So the whole sentence again:" Using intention or the mind (意) to direct celestial energy, as we draw energy inwards we direct its flow from the back of the head towards the front forehead" Anyway something along these lines. If you are translating for yourself, as long as you understand it that is all that matters! My master師傅 likes to use acupressure points on various major parts of the body when channeling 'the force'. This makes the actions or our imagination more specific. In Qigong everything is so dependent on imagination. By the way, this 氣 in Qigong is the same stuff as prana (Sanskrit) that we use in Yoga.

What form of Qigong are you learning?

[imron]

以意導氣

To understand this phrase you need to have an understanding of what 意 is, and what 气 is, and how they interact with each other.

意 is quite easy. It's short for 意念 and in terms of Taiji/Qigong can be translated as your thought, intention, focus, will, etc. As for 气, it's a bit more tricky because it's a concept that doesn't readily exist in English. Personally, I dislike translations such as "celestial energy" (or even worse, equating it to things like the Force in Starwars), because it serves to mystify something that is actually very ordinary. You're better of just thinking of it as Qi, and then having someone explain what it is.

This is the way it was explained to me by my Taiji master:

Think about the palm of your left hand. Without too much difficulty, you should be able to send your internal thought to the palm of your hand, and "feel" your palm from the inside. If you now send your thought to your right hand you should be able to feel your right hand from the inside instead. In fact, just by thinking, you should be able to send it to both hands at once, or you can sent it (and the corresponding feeling) to your knee, or your elbow, or the tip of your nose, or really to any point on your body.

That thought is your 意 and that internal feeling is your 气. 气 is guided by your 意 and where your 意 goes, your 气 will follow. This is the meaning behind the sentence 以意導氣 - use your thought/intent to guide your Qi.

Anyway, that's really all it is. Don't think of Qi as some magical, mystical energy, as it will only serve to confuse you when all you can feel is that normal ordinary feeling.

[bamboo]

Last night I forgot to translate the last phrase which was: 武動乾坤 This one is more straight forward and I imagine the sentence 'stretched out' as 用武術來- 動- 乾坤。Or in my opinion: Use martial art(武) - to move/stir up(動) - the universe(乾坤). I had some problems with the character 乾 but i learned that this character means 'dry' as well as 'male' under complex characters hence male+female = 'universe'. I would never have cleared this up without trying to translate this last phrase, thanks to you. The simplified character version of dry干 is a lot more different and less likely to get all confused. 不知道 imron 老師 還有什么加上呢？ 請多多指教.

[imron]

不知道 imron 老師 還有什么加上呢？

有啊

Actually, I think you left out quite an important part. 乾 and 坤 are both trigrams from the eight trigrams (八卦).

乾 represents heaven and is shown by 3 solid lines. 坤 represents earth and is shown by 3 dashed lines.

Basically, it's Heaven & Earth, Yin-Yang etc.

If you're interested, the others trigrams are:

坎 - represents water, and is shown by a solid line in between two dashed lines.

离 - represents fire, and is shown by a dashed line in between two solid lines.

震 - represents thunder, and is shown by two dashed lines above one solid line.

巽 - represents wind, and is shown by two solid lines above one dashed line.

艮 - represents mountains, and is shown by one solid line above two dashed lines.

兑 - represents marshes, and is shown by one dashed line above two solid lines.

[imron]

Also, I'm not so sure if your translation of 武動乾坤 is correct. I've not heard or seen the phrase before, but I'd be more inclined to believe it meant something more like martial movements need to contain aspects of both 乾 and 坤, where 乾 is representative of a 实 (or solid) force, and 坤 is representative of a 虚 (or empty) force.

That's just a guess though. I'd be interested in hearing if any native speakers can comment on this issue.

[bamboo]

martial movements need to contain aspects of both 乾 and 坤, where 乾 is representative of a 实 (or solid) force, and 坤 is representative of a 虚 (or empty) force

What 師兄 imron is going on about is written up as a treatise or poem by the founder of Wu style TaiChiQuan太極拳. According to my teacher, this phrase 武動乾坤 must be placed in context, either within a longer sentence or paragraph before its true meaning can be ascertained. There is a similar phrase which is 武道乾坤 which lacks the the transitive verb 動 , more like a noun phrase and is altogether more fitting to the above suggestion by imron of the imperative to contain both male and female aspects, ying yang etc..in 武道 or 武術。With a 動 verb present, the 乾坤is an object of 武。 As such my 'translation' is altogether more appropriate. 就稱你師兄好了，老師太夸張！

[imron]

With a 動 verb present, the 乾坤is an object of 武。

Unless 动 here isn't a verb, but rather a contraction of a noun such as 动作 Plus, I don't think you can really use 乾坤 like this as a noun for the universe (could be wrong on this though).

[bamboo]

哎喲師兄， 武林界都會有錯誤的。‘乾坤’ means Universe in one CE dictionary I looked up. 不跟你熬了

[imron]

I understand that it can mean the universe in some contexts, it's just I always saw it more in a symbolic rather than literal sense.

另外，以后我建议你用全汉词典查这种词。我个人认为在这方面，英汉词典讲得不够清楚

[bamboo]

yes but the point of the thread was to translate into English. Now if you didn't realise this from the very beginning....I think you have pissed off most people who were trying to help the original poster translate. But you don't care anyway about making sense. All this is absolute rubbish you are posting even if it is your board. Oh yes you want to use a Chinese dictionary and translate everything into English on your own. wow makes too much sense. yes that way will have way more authority. Yes what a post...: yuck!!!!

[creamyhorror]

You heard the master!

[imron]

Obviously the point of a Chinese-Chinese dictionary isn't to get a direct translation into English, but rather to gain a better understanding of the word, and then yes, use that as base for your own translation. However illogical you might think this to be, it actually makes more sense for words that don't have a direct correlation in English. For example, if you look in the 现代汉语词典, the definition of 乾坤 is: 象征天地、阴阳等, which I'm sure you know translates as: symbolises heaven and earth, yin-yang etc.

Believe it or not, I was actually trying to offer you some helpful advice, based on my own experiences, rather than appear condescending. I'm sorry you took it the wrong way.

I think you have pissed off most people who were trying to help the original poster

Judging by the number of other people trying to help the original poster, that would be just you then.

[bamboo]

I finished 'translating' by about the second post. I don't really understand what you were trying to do from then on. or even your last two posts. I really thought I was going to have some exchange conversation about QiGong with the original poster. I don't really care about translating in a specific way or a 'correct' way. I was hoping for some exchange of experiences more than anything else. Too bad it turned out this way. I am not actually studying translation or whatever you seem to be doing. I thought I was actually being helpful for a moment only. What I waited for never came.. I was hoping you could drop the thread of your thought and move on. I guess this just didn't happen..

To supply some of the additional 'translation' information for the 3rd and 4th posts from me I actually had to ask my Chinese teacher and QiGong teacher what they thought. It was not trying to translate anything. Like someone asking a question on a particular post, you ask some people what they think and you try with the best of intentions to offer up some suggestions. Still the original poster does not even bother acknowledging any of the information or has left for good. Then someone else wants to go on about the way you translated! I don't really get into his long spiel about ying and yang, maybe different teacher different experiences etc.. still waiting for some discussion about actual Qigong. This doesn't happen, instead someone else is still going on about your solution to the original question!!!

None of my posts is about 'teaching' Chinese or I hope none of my posts past or future appears as if I am teaching. I just disagree strongly and give my opinion:lol:. Well that's all for now....

[imron]

My point is, that as someone also interested in the Chinese internal arts, I see it as a big disservice to these arts to translate terms related to them incorrectly, and the fact is, that many of the terms and concepts can't be directly translated anyway and need to be explained in order to gain any sort of understanding of what they mean. Also, there are many people, who as soon as they hear things like "celestial energy" or "jedi powers", just dismiss the whole field entirely, however those same people might actually be interested if it had been explained more accurately.

With regards to Qi (and all it's various different incarnations in other languages), there's so much rubbish out there, that you end up with people who believe their own bullshit, and then get their arses handed to them when they offer $5,000 to anyone who can beat them in a fight - and that kind of thing just serves to push back the art as a whole due to misconceptions about what Qi actually is and isn't.

Also, for your reference, the OP hasn't logged in to the board since he made that post, so at this time hasn't yet read any of the replies (which you could easily have verfied yourself by checking out his/her profile page).

[bamboo]

My point is, that as someone also interested in the Chinese internal arts, I see it as a big disservice to these arts to translate terms related to them incorrectly, and the fact is, that many of the terms and concepts can't be directly translated anyway and need to be explained in order to gain any sort of understanding of what they mean. Also, there are many people, who as soon as they hear things like "celestial energy" or "jedi powers", just dismiss the whole field entirely, however those same people might actually be interested if it had been explained more accurately.

I disagree with your train of thought entirely. Maybe you should not be trying to carry on a conversation with me on Chinese internal arts as it were and 'advising' me 'on the side' on how to change my "translations". If you have any experience in QiGong you should just launch off on your own wings and try to attract other people with your point of view. When you try to criticise people mode of translations it is not very obvious what you are going on about.

With regards to Qi (and all it's various different incarnations in other languages), there's so much rubbish out there, that you end up with people who believe their own bullshit, and then get their arses handed to them when they offer $5,000 to anyone who can beat them in a fight - and that kind of thing just serves to push back the art as a whole due to misconceptions about what Qi actually is and isn't.

Well well well, why didn't you come out way at the very beginning and tell the audience this misgiving you have about QiGong courses rather than going on and on about translating ying and yang..and whatnots making it clear this is entirely your point of view This is your perfect right quite apart from anyone else's translation. No such calamity is going to be avoided just because you managed to convinced someone about your superior Chinese translation skills. I on the other hand have never been cheated yet..... I don't agree that people will be cheated because they read my translations. People will be cheated if they don't check out courses carefully, if the teachers are phoney oh God a thousand and one reasons ......

[imron]

Because it's not Qigong courses I have issues with, but rather the terminology being used in those courses. Also, if you look back, I wasn't initially advising you on your translations, until you asked me to:

不知道 imron 老師 還有什么加上呢？ 請多多指教.

(what I mentioned in my first post wasn't directed at you, but rather the OP).

[bamboo]

請多多指教.

I was only how you say "bluffing"? Couldn't really appreciate what you were doing from my post onwards...

IF you are translating for yourself, the "translation" does not really have to matter if you understand it. (This is in my first post) That is how important I feel about how important "translation" is to the whole QiGong exercise.

Also much of what I understand about QiGong turns out not to be not about breaking blocks or getting into a fight or course fees. This is when I started to find the twist of this thread getting rather weird and boring. (sh)

[imron]

Also much of what I understand about QiGong turns out not to be not about breaking blocks or getting into a fight or course fees.

This I agree with entirely.

[kaox0018]

Thanks for all the help you guys provided. I went on vacation over the time so i didn't log on but I did read the posts earlier. Thanks for all the time you guys put in. I'm not practicing qi gong but was reading a little about it and some things didnt make sense to me so i asked. thanks again.