Chinese learnt differently

[Scoobyqueen]

AS ABOVE

[imron]

Simply really, science & engineering types like challenges

[renzhe]

I've noticed that it is far more difficult to learn Chinese than another Indo-European language, especially after having studied Latin. I've also noticed that Vietnamese people who have very average to poor English and German skills pick up Mandarin at an astonishing pace. So I think much of it has to do with the languages you're used to learning, because different languages will require different approaches.

I've noticed the following things about Chinese:

- Visual memory is far more important. You either know a character or you don't. You can't fall back to individual characters and figure out a challenging word.

- Context is extremely important, much more than in European languages. Due to the nature of the spoken language (short, mostly disyllabic words with meaning partially encoded in the tonal signature and many many similar-sounding phonemes combined with a wide range of accents and high speed), I find it difficult to analytically split the sentence into words and figure out the meaning from this. I either understand the sentence immediately, or I don't. There's no time to translate.

- European languages use a lot of grammar to express complex relations. I find that, when speaking and reading, there is more thinking involved -- at least at the beginner and intermediate levels of learning (declining nouns, conjugating verbs, leaving verbs till the end of a sentence, etc.) With Chinese, it is more of a pattern matching problem -- the structure of the individual blocks gives the meaning.

I don't know if this favours engineers or not. If anything, I'd expect engineers to be better at languages like Latin or German, where you get a big grammar book'o'rules (your specification) and then proceed to apply these rules in a systematic fashion, rather than listening and memorising until your brain bleeds and then magic happens and you understand it (which is how I would summarize the Chinese learning experience).

I think that the easier answer is that engineers, mathematicians and scientists in general, are more likely to be into ninjas, Bruce Lee movies and geeky things like that.

[Senzhi]

If anything, I'd expect engineers to be better at languages like Latin or German

That must be it: I speak four languages fluently, but ... I'm crap at fixing anything (except laptops ... blame that one on IBM), and I was a complete failure in Latin and German.

I always wondered why. Thanks for clarifying.

[lemur]

I studied languages and linguistics for my first and second degree. Until I started learning Chinese, I was always under the impression, that people studying languages were more or less hopeless at maths, science and engineering (speaking mostly about myself here).

Is this based on an observation that most people who take foreign language classes are not majoring in sciences and engineering? I would say that if that observation is not a fluke, the direct causes are not primarily individual skill but program requirements.

I have a bachelor's in computer engineering. I started an M.A. in computer engineering but did not finish it (because I met my wife and moved to another country). I worked as an engineer for 5 years and then went back to get an M.A. in South Asian Studies and now I'm doing a Ph.D. in Religious Studies.

I can tell you that during my undergrad studies the only language requirement was being able to read English (which was a foreign language to me and my schoolmates) and at the M.A. level there was no additional requirement. And I've not heard of any of my colleagues being required to read any foreign language other than English even at the Ph.D. level.

After my engineering, I've been in two different graduate programs in the humanities. The M.A. program I was in required intermediate proficiency in all four skills in a South Asian language. My Ph.D. program requires reading proficiency in two modern research languages and in two classical language. And more languages the better. My Ph.D. does not require me to speak any language but then again to do research abroad speaking is useful so that's why I'm in an intensive Mandarin class this summer.

So I think programs in sciences and engineering make it so that people in those programs are not likely to take language classes or to progress as far in languages as people in the humanities do.

I am wondering if indeed amongst the students of Chinese the reverse is true. I have come across a not insignifcant number of people learning Chinese whose main forte is electronics, engineering or science. This has actually surprised me. If this is a true representation of Chinese learners, maybe Chinese is somehow learnt differently.

The engineer part of me prefers Sanskrit to Classical (or Modern) Chinese. Sanskrit has a thick set of grammatical rules and those rules have been codified very early on. That provides a nice infrastructure to work with. Actually, Panini's Sanskrit grammar reads like computer pseudo-code. I'm not kidding. There's no real equivalent in Chinese.

Don't get me wrong: I like Chinese but I don't think it is particularly adapted to the scientific or technical mindset.

[Lugubert]

At least as early at the age of some 11, I refused to believe that languages and science required basically different skills, or that they couldn't be combined.

European languages use a lot of grammar to express complex relations. I find that, when speaking and reading, there is more thinking involved -- at least at the beginner and intermediate levels of learning (declining nouns, conjugating verbs, leaving verbs till the end of a sentence, etc.) With Chinese, it is more of a pattern matching problem -- the structure of the individual blocks gives the meaning.

Your "pattern matching" in Chinese is as much grammar as the inflectional systems of European languages.

I don't regard myself as exceptionally gifted. For example, I totally suck at finance, and only recently (I'm 65), it seems that I have acquired a modicum of interpersonal skills.

But I translate professionally hi-tech stuff (I prefer medical and chemical) from at least half a dozen Indo-European languages into my native Swedish, and interact comfortably with professors of linguistics and religious science.

Right now, I'm learning Chinese and Bible Hebrew. Great fun!

I'm not really bragging. I just humbly (I hope) try to make as much as possible from the genes my parents gave me, as a tribute to them.

[renzhe]

Your "pattern matching" in Chinese is as much grammar as the inflectional systems of European languages.

Of course.

It is a different kind of grammar though, which requires a different approach, in my opinion.

[Long Zhiren]

You forgot about music.

People who studied music in their backgrounds tend to have learned spoken Chinese much better than those who have not studied music. Those who have not spent much time with music tend to have attrociously hideous foreign accents, far worse and almost unbearable compared to the foreign accents of others. Maybe it's a matter of having trained ears.

So how come Mandarin speakers have a harder time with Cantonese than vice-versa?

[lilongyue]

Wasn't a engineering major, but wasn't ever bad a math either. I was (and am) more into music, literature and the arts. I read a book a long time ago called "Music, Ecstasy and the Brain" that said the ability humans have to hear such a wide spectrum of sounds was the result of our ears and brains adapting to the high and low frequencies created through speech. It said the only reason we can appreciate a symphony, from the throbbing lows double bass to the high piccolo, is because the same range of sounds contained in speech. There are probably other theories, but I think there is some connection between language and music. In my time abroad, I've met people who say that musicians have an advantage when learning foreign languages. I think the ear training I did when studying music helped a lot with the tones in Chinese. Also, a friend of mine who is a musician aced his logic class. The teacher told him that people who study music usually do well in logic, something about studying chord progressions, scales and their relation to keys, etc., that helps musicians with patterns.

I think besides the things mentioned by renzhe, there are some people who are able to quickly detect, understand and work with patterns. In language, I guess this would mean grammar. But honestly, I think anyone can learn a language, regardless of their major or natural inclinations (like a strong leaning towards math or the sciences). Chinese are a good example of that. In fact, I always wonder about this difference between Chinese, or even Europeans, and Americans. I think most Americans couldn't imagine majoring in a demanding field like medicine or law or engineering, and also study a foreign language to even a basic conversational degree. Big problem with American education system.

[so.many.words]

I chose to study engineering because I was a classic mathphobic ...cured now:D

I chose to study Chinese because it has become clear that I have a self-persecution-complex ....no cure:roll:

[Scoobyqueen]

Is this based on an observation that most people who take foreign language classes are not majoring in sciences and engineering? I would say that if that observation is not a fluke, the direct causes are not primarily individual skill but program requirements.

AS ABOVE

[atitarev]

I have both technical and linguistic background, don't see any conflict here.

I majored in European language at a Kharkov Uni, Ukraine (also spelled as Kharkiv). Learning German, English and French is definitely different from learning Chinese and Japanese for any European speaker (native Russian in my case). Many things helped me to get started because I had experience learning languages but I had to change many things too.

I noticed that in our Chinese class the skill sets and strengths are too different, depending on learning styles, opportunities to practice used, duration of studies and the background. With Chinese it's important to do many things, but if you focus on speaking, your reading or writing can get way behind. If you read a lot, it doesn't mean your writing is good. If your skip your pronunciation and tone drills at the beginning, it's much harder to catch up later. Don't ignore tones. For me writing by hand was less important and I forget how to write simple hanzi, even if I have seen them many times and will definitely recognise them when I see them.

[Long Zhiren]

I think most Americans couldn't imagine majoring in a demanding field like medicine or law or engineering, and also study a foreign language to even a basic conversational degree. Big problem with American education system.

I believe this problem may be getting better.

When I was a college engineering student in the President Reagan era, there was no shortage of full ride scholarships for language studies overseas. I got one to go study in France, after testing out of all of the undergraduate French courses before starting freshman year. The trick was that the scholarships weren't necessarily available to students who were majoring in French. The idea was to help somebody who could actually use the language to benefit American industry, etc later on. Of course, most of the students studying French to such working levels were...French majors who couldn't so easily get the scholarships. On the other hand, I was damn lucky that the language faculty actually knew who I was, even though I wasn't in their department, and encouraged me to apply for the scholarships.

Purdue had no Chinese language classes at the time.

Now it is pleasant to see that Purdue has Chinese (right after I graduated of course). (If a US college doesn't offer it yet, the college has probably become irrelevant.) Now, the engineering programs also have their own well-developed and popular programs to send their students everywhere. And it looks like hundreds of those undergraduates are in fact doing it. So for Purdue, the annual numbers have gone from a handful in my day to hundreds now.

My father says that he just bumped into a whole bunch of Purdue's Agricultural Engineering undergraduates on a Yangzi river cruise two months ago.

[Long Zhiren]

Music background also seems to help people recognize rhythms in the way certain languages are spoken by their native speakers.

Some people will take their native valley girl English and produce a valley girl Chinese after they've studied Chinese. Sorry people. It doesn't sound so cool. But they don't realize it. They seem really caught up in losing their personalities in speaking another language.

Somebody needs to help spread the word that when we speak different languages, we take on different personalities. People look at us and treat us differently depending on our projected fluency, confidence and vocabulary use. That's just the way it goes; but it's a big paralyzing hang-up for some people. We all start as children at some point or another!

[meowypurr]

hm, odd... I would expect that people who are good at math/science/engineering would actually be better at learning languages =] since all of those disciplines require strengths like logic, pattern recognition, using formulas, etc... although those skills are only good in language when there are few exceptions to the rules...

I'm decent at learning languages and I definitely prefer math/science/engineering =]

[Lugubert]

I would expect that people who are good at math/science/engineering would actually be better at learning languages ='] since all of those disciplines require strengths like logic, pattern recognition, using formulas, etc...

That has been my theory for at least some 40 years. I had big problems when chosing high school specialization. Languages or science? Future possible financial aspects made me go for science, and then a masters in engineering.

Retired, I'm now pursuing a third degree (I also hold a BA in linguistics) in perhaps Old Testament theology from a Bible Hebrew view, or on a sociological treatment of Sikh worship. Unless my Chinese prof thinks I should more thoroughly than anyone before investigate the number of characters (or words) thought to be required for a given percentage of comprehension of a Chinese text...

Honest and deeply felt interest beats most other factors for success in studies.

[anonymoose]

From my experience (which is admitedly only subjective), people who specialise in the arts are often not very good at the sciences, whereas people who specialise in science are often quite good at arts. I guess at least it possibly appears this way since a science specialist may well decide to learn a language on the side, whereas it's unlikely an arts specialist would choose to study, say maths, as a hobby.

Personally, though, I don't see any conflict between the two. Generally speaking, those who are motivated to study will be good at anything they study, whereas those who aren't won't be.

People who studied music in their backgrounds tend to have learned spoken Chinese much better than those who have not studied music. Those who have not spent much time with music tend to have attrociously hideous foreign accents, far worse and almost unbearable compared to the foreign accents of others.

I don't agree. I've never really studied music seriously, yet I am often complimented on my accent. Though my sample group is limited, I know of at least one person who majored in music and only has an average accent.

[~Rachel~]

It's hard to say. Chinese is a very different learning process in my experience than French, Spanish, Latin, or Japanese. Probably closest to Japanese, but still very very different. I do think musical inclination helps, and I am a total failure at math so maybe that's why I'm not doing well in Chinese, but I think if you're naturally a language person (like I am) you'll do okay at pretty much any language. Romance languages are just "easier" because we can etymologically pick up a lot of the words-- but after a while in Chinese you sort of can too. I did it today on my final.

Then again, I'm also the girl whose favorite part in Knights of the Old Republic was finding the stowaway and decoding her language. ;) I had it figured out and was chatting back at her while my brothers and dad were still going "huh? what are we supposed to do? let's go online and get cheat codes for this part."