PRC Flag

[foodtarget]

With the Olympics fast approaching and Chinese nationalism soaring to unprecedented heights, I've been facing some thorny questions on how exactly I feel about China. One of my main conflicts is how to view the Chinese (PRC) flag. As I have learned more about the history and workings of the CCP regime, I can't say that I'm in love with the Chinese government. This presents a problem because, as you may have known, the PRC flag represents the uniting of China under the Communist party. And since nearly every street corner has someone peddling "I Love China" crap plastered with the PRC flag, it seems like to love China is to love the flag is to love th Party. For this reason, I have developed an averse reaction to the flag, and I really don't want to sport any version of the flag (on T-shirts, stickers, etc). (I thought about trying to obtain a T-Shirt with the ROC flag on it to wear when I go to Beijing, but decided I didn't want to get arrested ^_^) But if I tell any of my Chinese friends how I dislike the flag, they see it as an attack on China itself. China and the Party aren't one and the same. Isn't it possible to love the country and hate the Party? Since the Party enjoys unchallenged power over a large (albeit shrinking) portion of peoples' lives, how do you begin to distinguish the Party from the people? Does anyone else have thoughts on this? Or am I totally overthinking this issue?

[Luobot]

If you turn that around and hear someone denigrate the American flag (or the national flag of your native country), how would you feel? These are just symbols of a people. If they are basically good people, but with a government that you don’t agree with, then why get hung up on the symbols that the people identify with? There’s nothing inherently wrong with the PRC flag. If China were to become a democracy, they could keep the same flag and say that it represents the struggle to become united under a freely elected government. In fact, the P in the name PRC would make more sense if China were a democracy of the people, by the people, for the people. However, I wouldn’t wear a shirt with a picture of Chairman Mao because that might indicate to others that I endorsed him, his philosophy, his cultural revolution and the death of millions of people, and I wouldn’t want any personal association with it. But China’s flag, whatever its origins, has come to represent China, just as the American flag represents the people of America, rather than neo-conservatism, the age of segregation, the Iraq war, or any other policy that may be out of favor. This doesn’t mean that you need to wear the flag, or wave the flag, but you also needn’t feel put off by it.

But that's just my opinion as a [ADSO]外國人[/ADSO]. Perhaps a native Chinese could give you better sense of the pride they feel about hosting the Olympics and getting to wave their flag for all the world to see.

[renzhe]

You may equate the flag with the Communist Party, but to many people, the flag represents the scientific discoveries, the manned space mission, the athletes competing internationally, the development in Beijing and Shanghai, etc. Everything about the country they come from, the good as well as the bad.

You'd wear a ROC T-shirt (probably as a provocation more than anything else), yet the stuff that Chang Kai-Shek did in his heyday is not that much better than the glory that is the PRC history.

I guess you could do what I do, and hate all the governments and all the flags equally and refuse to sport any of them.

[Outofin]

Yes, the flag is subject to different interpretation. I bet you won’t like its original meanings. But we can see it in a simpler way – it’s a red flag with yellow stars, representing China.

Really, red is a very traditional color for celebration. I think you can buy a red flag without yellow stars on it. People will like your flag, and you won't be uncomfortable with it neither. Yeah, let’s wave something red!

[Long Zhiren]

Perhaps then you should also have adverse reactions to the flag of any nation whose history is replete with helping the PRC come to power.

Vietnam, Cambodia, India, Pakistan and South Korea for various border incidents that made China's development rockier than necessary?

The US had its hands all over the civil war from 1945-1954, making the ROC go to cease fires at critical moments. No. 1954 is not a typo. The ROC was about to counterattack across the straits and from the south, but the US was afraid of nuclear escalation with the Korean thing going on.

Soviet Union--How about fly that one? Nobody else will.

Japan weakened the ROC from 1931-1945, making the PRC's coming to power that much easier.

The gang of eight (US, Japan, Russia, UK, France, Germany, Austria & Italy) helped the Qing get so weak as to making the ROC/PRC arise from its ashes. The Qing government wasn't really even Chinese...

I'm sure that we can give other countries some credit too.

The Five Races under One Union Flag? Pro-Tibet people would hate that. Did China have any flags prior to the Qing?

[gougou]

Does anyone else have thoughts on this? Or am I totally overthinking this issue?

I have never thought about this in the context of the flag, but the way that loving your country is often equated to loving the party is scary. However, I don't think a foreigner can change much about that (certainly not one sporting a ROC flag), this is a development that China must (and will, it's starting already) go through on its own.

[foodtarget]

If you turn that around and hear someone denigrate the American flag (or the national flag of your native country), how would you feel? These are just symbols of a people.

The difference is that the flags of most other countries make no direct reference to a political party, religion etc. The American flag simply enumerates the number of original colonies and the number of current states. Such symbolism is fairly neutral and agreeable to Americans of various political affiliations and ideological backgrounds. Some other examples that come to mind are the Japanese flag, which depicts the rising sun, and the Mexican flag, which depicts an image based on an Aztec legend. So I feel that to attack these flags really is to attack the country, because there is nothing very controversial about them. The Chinese flag, however, officially symbolizes (this is not something I just made up) the Communist Party and it's guiding light (the big star) uniting the four classes of something or other (the little stars) and red represents the blood shed during the revolution. I've heard different interpretations of the four small stars, but everyone agrees that the large star represents the Communist Party and its supremacy.

But China’s flag, whatever its origins, has come to represent China, just as the American flag represents the people of America, rather than neo-conservatism, the age of segregation, the Iraq war, or any other policy that may be out of favor.

And this is exactly what frustrates me, since the flag has come to represent China, and at the same time represents the supremacy of the communist party (the big star). So the CCP is more or less inextricably linked to China itself. But the American flag, in my opinion, simply represents America. The link between the flag and neo-conservatism, the age of segregation, the Iraq war etc. is not the same as the link between the Chinese flag and the Communist Party. If we were to put Bush's face, some white people stepping on black people, or a big bomb aimed at Iraq in the middle of our flag, it would be a different story.

You'd wear a ROC T-shirt (probably as a provocation more than anything else), yet the stuff that Chang Kai-Shek did in his heyday is not that much better than the glory that is the PRC history.

You're right, the ROC has its dark side, and it would be more provocation than actual support for the ROC. But mostly, I would be making a point that China does not have to be defined by CCP.

I think you can buy a red flag without yellow stars on it. People will like your flag, and you won't be uncomfortable with it neither. Yeah, let’s wave something red!

That's a good suggestion, I think I might do that.

Perhaps then you should also have adverse reactions to the flag of any nation whose history is replete with helping the PRC come to power.

I would hold that against the government, not the flag (assuming the flag does not express support for a particular party/organization).

the way that loving your country is often equated to loving the party is scary

I'm glad someone sort of understands where I'm coming from ^_^

[renzhe]

You're getting too involved in (real or perceived) symbolism.

Does it matter to the millions of dead native Americans what the Spanish and the Portuguese flags really represent? Does the true meaning (communist-free) of the Union Jack make it less representative of British imperialism? Or the rising sun of imperial Japan? There are people who would tell you it represents the Emperor himself.

Or is German nationalism suddenly more cute, after having changed the flag?

The difference is that the flags of most other countries make no direct reference to a political party, religion etc.

Except the Korean, Turkish, Saudi, Algerian, Morroccan, Danish, Swedish, English, Scottish, British, Norwegian, Finnish, and who knows how many more.

Not to mention the non-flag related symbolism depicting the king/queen on everything except the flag.

[foodtarget]

You're getting too involved in (real or perceived) symbolism.

Does it matter to the millions of dead native Americans what the Spanish and the Portuguese flags really represent? Does the true meaning (communist-free) of the Union Jack make it less representative of British imperialism? Or the rising sun of imperial Japan? There are people who would tell you it represents the Emperor himself.

Or is German nationalism suddenly more cute, after having changed the flag?

Well first of all, I don't think dead people of any race care much about anything. But more importantly, I think you are confusing relative importance with absolute importance. Sure, relative to the deaths of millions of Native Americans, the intended symbolism of a flag is of little importance. But following that logic, in comparison to the lives of impoverished, starving African children, pretty much everything we discuss on this forum is of little or no importance. But does that mean it has no absolute importance? Certainly not.

A flag is a representation of a country, and is thus very important. What is put on the flag shows what is important to that country and how that country views itself. The symbolism of the flag thus influences (albeit subtly) public opinion and public policy. It reminds me of the ongoing argument of whether or not "In God we trust" should be printed on American money, as it seems to contradict our values of religious freedom and a secular government. But some people will take such symbolism, extrapolate interpretations of the "values on which this country was founded" and use that as partial justification for legislation based on religious ideology.

And while the dead Native Americans probably have no particular opinion on the symbolism of flags, those still alive might. If the flag of a Latin American country (Mexico, for example) used symbols from the Spanish flag (instead of the ancient Aztec symbolism currently on the flag), I'm sure the decedents of natives would be quite upset, and heated debates would probably ensue. You can't say that symbolism doesn't matter.

Except the Korean, Turkish, Saudi, Algerian, Morroccan, Danish, Swedish, English, Scottish, British, Norwegian, Finnish, and who knows how many more.

Okay, perhaps I spoke too hastily regarding religion, but none of the example flags you cited seem to reference a particular political ideology, only religions. While I think a neutral (secular), all-inclusive flag that still has some symbolic significance for the country is preferable, for all of the flags you mentioned, it could be argued that religion has been inextricably linked with the local culture throughout most of their recorded history, and thus religious symbolism also has strong cultural and historical significance. However the same can't be said for the communist symbolism on the PRC flag. The Chinese Communist Party wasn't even founded until 1921, after the fall of the Qing, and came to power in 1949. So communism has only played a significant role for a very very tiny portion of China's 5000 year history. As for cultural significance, the communist ideology was pretty much imported lock stock and barrel, and the CCP sought to emulate the Soviet Union. So how does this represent anything indigenous or significant to Chinese culture? In short, I feel that the communist symbolism of the PRC flag has little or no historical and cultural significance to China.

Not to mention the non-flag related symbolism depicting the king/queen on everything except the flag.

This reminds me of another thing I don't understand. Why is Mao's face on every freaking bill?!! (well, except for the worthless 1 and 5 jiao bills that depict some happy minorities). Isn't there anyone else who deserves a spot on the money? Deng Xiaoping comes to mind. I could probably start a whole new thread on my feelings toward the Mao cult worship, but I won't...

[atitarev]

Some software applications (Wakan) and plug-ins (Firefox - GB2BIG) use the Chinese flag to represent the Chinese language or Hanzi. I got used to it. I don't know another Chinese flag apart from ROC, which doesn't represent the whole of China. If Chinese people ever change their flag, we'll have to get used to it. Adverse attitude to the flag may only be caused by anti-Chinese brainwashing. It represents the whole country and its people first, not the party. I agree with Luobot and others, the system may change, they flag may remain, it's up to the Chinese people.

[renzhe]

Well, you also have the swastika, which is a symbol of really good things.

But the actions of a certain regime using this symbol on their flag have made the said flag very unpopular.

There is nothing questionable about a swastika, or a star. It's what they've come to represent that matters when discussing whether flag-waving is offensive.

And they've come to represent very similar things as some of the other flags I've mentioned: the Spanish, Portuguese, Turkish, etc.

[Long Zhiren]

Why not just dare to be different? That's the whole point isn't it?

So, who cares if some people correlate certain flags with nationalism.

Start a new trend. Observe the flags to represent all of the peoples that happen to live in those geographic areas under which those flags currently fly. That's what the Olympics should be more about, right?

Here in the US, there's a bunch of morons who want a boycott of the games. Gee. Let's think this through. A bunch of athletes have trained all of their lives to be ready for this one passing moment. Let's wait until the last minute to tell them that they can't go and compete. That'll show the communists won't it? No. That's Jimmy Carter thinking. It is stupid and punishes nobody but athletes and sports fans. It also seems immaterial to say which political leader can or can not go. If they happen to be sports fans, it makes sense. What an honor for the athletes if their own national leaders come to see them compete! It's like having your parents being present for something that you've worked hard to do. If the politicians are there or are not there for some reason other than the athletes, those politicians should be ignored. The athletes won't want them around, neither will the fans.

We know that President George Bush is a sports fan, especially baseball and running events. He's known to have the secret service whisk famous runners from different nations into the White House for visits. That is when those runners just happen to be in town as tourists.

[renzhe]

I think some of you would have died if you had witnessed the World Cup in Germany. An overdose of flag waving.

[Long Zhiren]

Just wave a flag with an explanation attached to it--maybe an olympics flag.

[bhchao]

But China’s flag, whatever its origins, has come to represent China

Which China though? I would say many people will disagree with the PRC flag being an ideal flag to represent China, because it too symbolizes the CCP. "Red" the color has a thick political connotation that many among the Chinese diaspora find unappealing, especially if China were to become a reunified, two party entity.

[muyongshi]

"Red" the color has a thick political connotation that many among the Chinese diaspora find unappealing, especially if China were to become a reunified, two party entity.

Yes it does have a huge connotation to it politically but red is THE color of China since forever.

[foodtarget]

Yes it does have a huge connotation to it politically but red is THE color of China since forever.

While this is true, the symbolism of the red background of the Chinese flag, as intended by its designer, is to represent the Communist revolution. You're free to make up you're own interpretation, but that doesn't change the official/intended meaning.

[muyongshi]

Yes but my point being that even if the country wasn't Communist the chances of them having a red flag is probably higher than 90%. I'm not trying to change or reinterpret the original meaning of the flag but simply stating that a rose by any other name is still a bloody rose.

[lilongyue]

Problem solved!

[bhchao]

There should be a compromise if the color red is unavoidable. Rather than a full-blown red, we should have a flag that integrates the KMT emblem (blue background with white star in the middle) with the CCP flag (full-blown red).

The compromise flag would be the white star on blue background surrounded by a sea of red. That's a reunification flag in the making because you get the best of both worlds.