Best Cities for learning Mandarin

[jimndeb]

I plan on moving my family to China for 2-3 years. I'd like my daughter (age 6) to learn the Mandarin dialect that will be most useful to her as a Chinese-American adult. Our plan is to enroll her in school while we are there.

We are trying to decipher which cities speak which dialects.

I assume that the most useful Mandarin dialect to a international person in the year 2020 would be Hanyu. (correct me if that is not the right name for the official dialect).

We were trying to avoid the obvious choice of Bejing for a number of reasons but are unsure of where else she might learn this dialect in a school.

We were thinking of Nanjing. Would anyone be willing to offer us some advice?

Thanks.

[renzhe]

Hanyu basically means Chinese language. All Chinese people (Han and some others) speak some kind of Hanyu.

Mandarin is the biggest dialectal group among the Chinese languages/dialects, and is spoken primarily in the north. There are other dialectal groups, like Cantonese (spoken in the south) and Wu (spoken around the Shanghai region).

The standard form of Mandarin used for all official communication, all newspapers, virtually all radio and TV broadcasts, and basically everything else in China is called putonghua (common speech). It is loosely based on the Beijing dialect, but it borrows from other dialects as well. people will sometimes use "hanyu" to mean putonghua, though this is not exactly correct. What is meant is "standard Hanyu", and the standard Chinese language happens to be putonghua.

Today, putonghua (standard Mandarin) is the official language of the People's Republic of China. This means it's spoken in schools, at universities, all officials, etc. Virtually everbody in China will be able to speak it. Wherever you go in China, you will be able to learn putonghua. Think of it as learning standard German in Munich or standard Castillian Spanish in Barcelona. Though these people will speak Bavarian or Catalan at home, often also on the street, they will all know the official language too.

So if you go to a city where some kind of Mandarin is the local dialect, you will also be able to hear Mandarin on the streets, the kids in school will speak some kind of Mandarin, etc. It will usually not be the perfect standard putonghua, but it will be close enough. The north-east is usually considered to have a very clear dialects, which is very close to putonghua.

If you go to Nanjing or Shanghai or Guangzhou, people will also be able to speak putonghua (sometimes with an accent), but they will speak Shanghainese or Cantonese on the street, and to each other. Chances are that kids in school will also talk to each other in their local dialect. This is not necessarily a bad thing, but you should be aware of it.

This webpage has a nice map of the main dialects in China. Keep in mind, though, that the northern Mandarin dialects (like the ones around Dalian or Beijing) are closer to the standard putonghua than, say, the Mandarin spoken around Chengdu.

[skylee]

This means it's spoken in schools, at universities, all officials, etc. Virtually everbody in China will be able to speak it.

Somehow I doubt it. It is not the case in Hong Kong, nor along the border in places in Yunnan, Tibet, etc.

Much as I love my hometown Hong Kong, I do not think it is a place for learning Mandarin.

[renzhe]

Hong Kong and Macau are slightly different because they weren't formally a part of China at the time when there was a strong push to standardise on putonghua on the mainland, and putonghua hasn't been forced as the standard dialect. I really enjoyed both cities, and was surprised at how many people could actually speak Mandarin, but I'd agree that they aren't the best choice for someone wanting to learn Mandarin.

You are also right about Tibet, Xinjiang, and similar regions, although I hear that in the big cities, putonghua is prevalent.

Most other parts of China, at least the cities, should be fine in my experience. I've been through Shanghai and Wuxi with nothing but standard Mandarin and I've only heard the local dialect a couple of times. In fact, my girlfriend is from Wuxi, and doesn't speak the local dialect at all, she speaks Mandarin as her native language. Shenzhen and Guangzhou are similar, according to what I've heard (I haven't visited yet).

The problem is with older people and more rural areas. People who have been through the (mainland) public school system in the last 30 years will all speak fluent Mandarin.

EDIT: made it a bit clearer

[skylee]

Hong Kong and Macau are slightly different because they weren't formally a part of China until 1997 or so

HK was a part of China before it became a British colony. But we don't have to go into it.

[liuzhou]

Virtually everbody in China will be able to speak it.

Not according to the Chinese Government, who only put it at 53%. I know many people who can't speak it.

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2007-03/07/content_5812838.htm

[HedgePig]

I think you'd find most big cities would be fine for learning Mandarin as this is the medium of instruction in the schools. Children are also discouraged from speaking the local dialect in school.

Are you thinking of sending your child to a fully local school, rather than a local school with an international stream? If so be aware of what you are letting yourself in for The style of instruction is very different from western countries - much more rigid and much rote learning. They also get a lot of homework (2 hours per day), despite official efforts to reduce the burden on the younger children. The children are also put under a lot of pressure to perform well as the teachers bonuses depend on how well their students do.

Unless you read and write Chinese yourself you will certainly need someone to help your child with her homework. Don't expect any support from the local schools as they simply aren't used to or equipped for dealing with foreigners. Also many the local children will be able to read and maybe write upon entering first grade. If your child starts at a local school after first grade, they will have a lot of catching up to do.

It may be that a local school with an international stream is more suitable.

Regards

HedgePig

[self-taught-mba]

Liuzhou's article includes this:

The survey also found that 56.76 percent of Chinese men can speak Putonghua, while 49.22 percent of women speak it. About 70 percent of people between the age of 15 and 29 speak mandarin, while only 30.97 percent between the age of 60 and 69 can speak standard mandarin.

So you can see the trend. Virtually all young people (her peers) will have to learn it.

[foodtarget]

You are also right about Tibet, Xinjiang, and similar regions, although I hear that in the big cities, putonghua is prevalent.

Because of forced Sinification...

People who have been through the (mainland) public school system in the last 30 years will all speak fluent Mandarin.

Not necessarily. Although the central government mandated that class should be taught from a certain grade in Putonghua except for certain exceptions (blah blah blah), this isn't always the case. One of my Chinese friends said that in his first year of college, he had a roommate who came from a town where everyone spoke the same dialect, and so the teachers at his school used the dialect to teach and students talked to each other in dialect. Of course, they still studied Mandarin, but more like as a foreign language. When this guy got to college and had to speak Mandarin, he had a hard time adjusting and he still speaks with a very very strong accent. This is probably more common than you might think, mostly among people who come from smaller towns (not necessarily rural areas, just not big cities) where everyone speaks the same dialect and the central government has a hard time enforcing rules on the teaching of Putonghua. Also, I believe there are some exceptions for schools in areas where most people speak a special minority language or something.

We are trying to decipher which cities speak which dialects.

Back to the original question, I think in pretty much every medium or large-sized city where there are people from different parts of China, the schools will conduct class mostly in Mandarin and students will probably talk to each other in Mandarin. I am in Xiamen right now, which is very far South and is the capital of Minnanhua, a dialect that sounds almost nothing like putonghua. Even though all the locals speak Minnanhua, it seems like classes are always taught in Putonghua because of the number of people from other provinces (or even other nearby cities). And I've talked to some students who say that, even when they are with other students who speak the Minnanhua dialect, they still speak in Putonghua because that is what they are used to. So I think any big city would be at least acceptable.

That being said, people down here in Xiamen don't necessarily speak putonghua with the most "standard" accent, even if it is the only language they speak. So if you want your daughter to acquire a more standard accent, then a northern city would be better. I think as a general rule, the closer to Beijing the better.

[renzhe]

I wonder how putonghua was defined and tested, considering that far more than 53% of people in China speak some kind of Mandarin (which is often understandable by putonghua speakers).

But I guess my statement was inaccurate. A more correct statement would be that most younger people in bigger cities will speak putonghua, at least at a level where communicating with them will be no problem. When it comes to people you're likely to interact with as a foreigner in a big Chinese city, most of them will speak putonghua.

I have met exactly one person in a couple of weeks in Shanghai and Wuxi who didn't speak fluent Mandarin, and it was a 70-year old man who took care of a graveyard. (EDIT: Actually, I don't know whether he spoke Mandarin or not, it's just that my hosts spoke the local dialect with him exclusively) Every single taxi driver, shop owner, bus driver, clerk, etc. spoke it fluently. But maybe these cities, drawing many people from outside of the province, are not representative.

[liuzhou]

People who have been through the (mainland) public school system in the last 30 years will all speak fluent Mandarin.

No. Many teachers in local schools and colleges fail their Mandarin exams.

[renzhe]

What kind of Mandarin exam?

I'm sure you can still converse with them, or buy a train ticket from them, though.

I couldn't teach German or Spanish at school, but it doesn't mean I don't speak them. I can pass some proficiency tests for those languages, but I certainly wouldn't pass one that was required to teach them in school.

[liuzhou]

What kind of Mandarin exam?

The one all teachers are required to sit. I know people who sit it every year and fail. Sorry, can't remember the exact title at the moment. If the missus ever wakes up, I'll ask her.

I couldn't teach German or Spanish at school, but it doesn't mean I don't speak them. I can pass some proficiency tests for those languages, but I certainly wouldn't pass one that was required to teach them in school.

Fair enough, but you said:

People who have been through the (mainland) public school system in the last 30 years will all speak FLUENT Mandarin.

- my emphasis.

That is simply not true.

I tend not to buy train tickets from teachers.

[renzhe]

There is a huge difference between speakign a language fluently (which is easy) and being able to teach it in school, or even being able to use it at a high level (which is hard). There are many fluent speakers whose vocabulary is limited, who can't explain (or even apply correctly) grammar rules, and who make mistakes.

I agree with your point that it is quite possible that in small towns, the original poster's daughter might get taught by people whose Mandarin is sub-par. Perhaps my original post about the spread of putonghua was too optimistic too, but I'm still convinced that you can function in most places in China speaking only putonghua. Granted, my experience is based on bigger cities which are targets of migration, so my experience here may be skewed.

I don't think that his daughter would have a problem learning Chinese in Nanjing, for example.

[self-taught-mba]

We are gonna scare this poor guy off. (guilty too)

Why don't we start with a good list for him:

Here are some:

Dalian

Hebei

[Lugubert]

My (not quite yet 100% formally) daughter tells me that I should do fine almost everywhere with "Mandarin". She has travelled extensively all over the country.

I suppose it helps, though, that one of her native languages is Cantonese, so I'm now employing her as a tour guide and interpreter in August to October.

[BrandeX]

In my opinion, go anywhere you want as long as it's not the country side (or out of the way provinces, like tibet and xinjiang mentioned), or Hong Kong, or Macau. In any normal large city people "can" basically speak mandarin most anywhere, even if its not their local dialect.

Thinking of it in terms of an American, like yourself. Do you think it's important to sound like a southerner, mid-westerner, SW'n-er, etc? We can all understand each other in the USA, even if our accents aren't the same. It doesn't really matter. Guangzhou where I live has many migrants from all over the country (I heard that something like only 25% of the people are left in the city here when the migrants go home for spring festival), and it's not too often I hear that one of the chinese people I know say they can't understand "anything" another person is saying to them in mandarin, (although I have once or twice), but they can certainly tell that they aren't from the same region. Much like we can about other american speakers accents. In short, pick a mid to large size city, ANY one. Choose it for reasons of employment, or personal preference, etc. Then put your kid in any local school. It won't matter, and they will be taught in mandarin. (unless you choose an international school for foreigners which are expensive, and taught in english)

[randall_flagg]

Hi Jimndeb!

I would recommend Dalian to you. While the local dialect sounds horrible to most Chinese people (ESPECIALLY if spoken by a girl), you can learn perfect Mandarin around here -- just like you can in many other Chinese cities. Dalian, however, has the advantage that it is relatively clean as far as air pollution etc are concerned -- one of the first things I would be considering as a parent relocating to China.

Greetings,

Randall

[crjcrj]

JimNDeb

Congratulations on making such a great decission for your family!

I have two children (Jan 2006 and March 2007), one of whom is in a local kindergarten in Beijing, and the other will join him next year.

I know you said you aren't interested in Beijing (we love it by the way!), but here is what I found:

There are 4 types of schools (I made up these names)

Local-local

Local-private

local-International

International-International

Local-Local

The government run schools, cost about 300-800 rmb per month, larger classes, not flexible regarding special diets/allergies or requests.

Local-Private

private schools run mainly for the local middle and upper-middle class, cost about 2,000 rmb per month. slightly better class ratio, more flexible and slightly more creative programmes, some are even very creative including montessori. (we go to one of these)

Local-International

Schools that are bilingual and tend to try to be like an International school, but have more local teachers and students, 80,000 rmb a year and up.

International-International

You might as well be in the suburbs , excellent USA, British or IB (or Canadian, German, French, etc...) curriculums, teach mostly in English or other non-Chinese language, about 125,000 - 175,000 rmb a year.

When it comes to the government run schools, not all of them like taking non-Chinese students, and it is quite a challenging process to navigate.

We are here long term, and have decided our kids will to to local-private for pre-school, and local-local for primary, but at secondary level will switch to a more creative environment. As a result, we have to supplement English and history lessons, etc... at home (not sure how yet, still working on that plan!)

Even though I speak okay mandarin, I don't read and write, and as a result of our decission, we have also decided I need to go to Mandarin school (today was my first day!!) to learn to read and write so I can communicate better with their school and teachers, read the notices they send home, and eventually participate in the PTA, etc... It is really impractical to think you can do everything through a translator.

BUT saying all that, if you only plan to be here for 1-2 years, and then are returning to your home country, then don't worry. If your main goal is language acquisition for your child - send them to local school, get a local Ayi (with a good accent, ours is great, but has an anhui accent - oh well!), and don't worry about all the extras and communication issues - guaranteed your child will pick up amazing mandarin. Even if she then goes on to forget it, if she learns it later in life she will have a great accent and a much easier time relearning it.

The other thing that helps on the Mandarin side, is having playmates - kids learn more from the language of their peers than anyone else. We have the opposite issue, most of our friends are Chinese, and our kids have better Chinese than English! So each family has their own different issues to resolve

Hope this helps, and you have a great relocation to China and fabulous experience!

[abcdefg]

I am certainly no expert on this subject, but do have a little relevant personal experience which I am glad to pass along. Have studied Chinese in China for about 4 months last year and almost 5 months this year in several different places. For me personally, it's not all about the quality of the Putonghua. It also has to with how pleasant daily life is in different places.

Beijing was too big and noisy and polluted for my liking. I know many people love it there, but I only stayed a month. Went to Kunming, where the climate is pleasant and studied at Keats School. Learned a lot and had a fine time, even though some residents of that city don't speak standard Mandarin. It was seldom a problem. Enjoyed exploring Yunnan when not in class.

Moved to Zhuhai. Great place to live with lots to do and fresh seafood easy to obtain. Encountered some Cantonese, of course, but many people had moved there from other parts of China and spoke Putonghua.

Went to Dalian for a summer course that did not pan out because of "Olympic security concerns." It seemed like a good place to live and the people were easy to understand during my short stay of less than one week.

I moved north to Harbin on the rebound from Dalian in the middle of last month and now study one to one with a tutor who has started a small school he calls a workshop. Am concentrating on reading and writing since I neglected those before and always focused on conversation.

In Harbin the people are usually friendly and will sometimes even initiate a conversation with a stranger. Their Putonghua is very clear. It's a real big city, and I don't yet have a feel for how it would be to live here for an extended period of time. In summer the days are hot, but it cools down nicely at night. The winters are much too cold for my liking..

I'll post my Harbin tutor's website below in case anyone else is interested in studying way up north. If you have questions I will try to answer them. If I don't know the answer I will simply admit it straight out. Here's a link to the Harbin Mandarin workshop: http://www.1to1mandarinworkshop.com