What would have happened in China?

[Scoobyqueen]

Just need to let off some steam:

[xuechengfeng]

I don't know what would happen in China, but I know in America, a man breaking a woman's jaw for basically nicking his car, even if you were trying to escape, would land that man in jail for quite some time.

[Luobot]

Even if you scratched his car, the damage that he caused to your body and mind is way out of proportion to a mere scratch on a car. In the US, you would have an excellent lawsuit, to say the least. But that’s in the US. Here is the closest such experience that I’ve had in China:

On vacation in Guilin a few years ago, I took up bicycle riding for the first time since I was a kid. It’s a great place to go bike riding, in my opinion, as the traffic isn’t that bad and the scenery is beautiful. What was amazing was that I didn’t run anyone over, or fall off the bike the entire afternoon, despite my wobbly riding. On the way back, I parked the bike on the curb near the shop where I rented it, planning to return it. Unfortunately, that’s when the bike decided to fall over. The good news was that no one got hurt, and the bicycle wasn’t scratched a bit (or, to be more accurate, the bike was already so old and scratched that you couldn’t see any difference). The bad news was that the bike brushed against a motorcycle parked next to it, as the bike slid to the ground. The owner of the motorcycle claimed that the bike cracked his windshield. Well, his windshield did have a crack, and there was a loud sound from the bike falling, so his claim was plausible. While haggling over the cost of the damages, my Chinese friend simply handed him 300 rmb and that was the end of it. No lawyers, no court, no insurance claims, no hospital, just paid him the 300 bits and was done with it. Did the bike really cause the damage? Quite possibly. Was 300 rmb the right amount of compensation to replace an old, plastic windshield on a Chinese motorcycle in Guilin? I really have no idea, but looking back at it, my Chinese friend did the right thing … life is too short to turn a bump into a scar.

[adrianlondon]

Despite the love of the car here (I'm working in Stuttgart for a few months), there's still a sense of women needing protection. I'm very surprised the courts took the driver's side. In the UK, the two witnesses wouldn't have counted for much as they're not independent. They also would have watched the video footage.

I assume it was a court case YOU brought - a lawyer has evidence (cctv) but refused to look at it? Get another lawyer! This doesn't sound like the Germany I've come to know. Which just goes to show that people's perceptions can be wrong; so you can't rely on what anyone says about China ;)

[renzhe]

This does sound very strange. Physical attack is very serious matter in Germany.

[randall_flagg]

This sounds strange indeed. Why wouldn't anyone look at the CCTV? What was the reason they gave you? And I believe that the driver had NO right to stop you at all. Even detectives in supermarkets have the right to stop you, nor do the guys checking you ticket on the subway. From what I understand you can insist on them calling the police.

[renzhe]

It depends. The public transportation guys have the right to stop you, for example, because by taking the bus/train, you agree to a contract which allows them to do this.

They have no right to check your ID, though. They have to call the police for that. They can detain you until the police arrives.

A random car driver doesn't have the right to detain you (unless you've committed some grave crime), and I certainly wouldn't let him do this. Unfortunately, these ****holes always pick on the smaller people.

[self-taught-mba]

I don't know what would happen in China, but I know in America, a man breaking a woman's jaw for basically nicking his car, even if you were trying to escape, would land that man in jail for quite some time.

Not so in many cases. In many states you can use violence to stop someone in the commision of a felony up to and including shooting them. Fleeing the scene of an accident is a felony.

That being said the throwing to the ground thing seems about excessive to me - but I don't know all the facts. (Was it intentional? Did he have reason to think otherwise restraining you would be dangerous?)

In the US, you would have an excellent lawsuit, to say the least.

Also probably true. Despite being in the wrong criminals will file a lawsuit for excessive force. Like the guy who broke into a house and wrestled with the owner and got stabbed in the process. (not saying you were wrong)

Guilin story: dead on! In China more often then not they would try to exhort you for more money than the actual costs. Happened to me (bumped into an already broken plastic bumper with my leg - paid 100 kuai for something that was already broken, but if I had stayed the situation was not going to go over well for either of us - so I paid to avoid the conflict) and to two friends independently. Always paid too much.

I don't think the pushing you to the ground thing would be looked over though. Got into a fight with two contractors - was asking them to leave and trying to usher them out the door (after calling security 3 times and the police twice and them getting increasingly aggitated and me worried about the safety of people/students hence the decision to get them out with no further delay) when one decided to hit/push me violently. I reacted. It only lasted about 2-3 seconds, both went down and I stopped (thanks Wing Chung/combat training --despite my sloppiness/).

The police said they were wrong for refusing to leave (and coming in the first place - long story), but because they were bleeding a little and complained of headaches that I was wrong. Basically, they said it doesn't matter if he made the first move - you hurt him so you should have to pay him some money. They weren't hurt bad (I just did the initial reaction and stopped as I was just trying to protect those around me - he hinted at taking down the glass wall - and I could have easily stomped on them and in fact stopped my foot from connecting with his face when it became apparent it was over - so I really showed restraint), but they really milked it. Paid and left. The police just wanted to resolve it to save more complicated paperwork, but apparently I have to wait for someone to really hurt me before reacting and then if I hurt them worse I am still wrong! They also didn't want to hear the mp3 that was recording it all nor the testimony of others.

So in that respect I'm sure the guy would get in trouble.

Hope you heal.

[xuechengfeng]

That might be the law in some states, but do you really think that would be upheld in this case, given the facts we've been given? First of all, unless the original poster was in an all-out sprint away from the damaged vehicle, I think a jury and judge would give the benefit of the doubt to the injured party. Think about it, if I was with a couple buddies and a man did that to my car, it's the word of 3 against 1, I could simply have a violent temper, but we could all claim the man was running away so I broke his jaw. Does the law really want to give leniecy and set precedent for OK'ing battery? Second, I would imagine the use of force in a felony might be geared more towards a real dangerous felony, not someone nicking a car and leaving the scene of the crime, which the original poster didn't even say they did. Third, it was a female with a broken jaw at the hands of a male. What side of the fence do you think an American jury would sit? It doesn't mater if the original poster tried to flee the scene of the crime, it takes a lot to break a jaw, so for a man to do that to a woman, that guy is going to jail for battery, plain-and-simple.

I see where you're coming from, but there's the law and there's human emotion. Even if the law you speak of is absolutely correct, I doubt a jury would side with the man.

[Scoobyqueen]

Thanks to all for the contributions. but nevertheless one that I did not commit.

[adrianlondon]

If I were you, I'd pursue it privately. This is Germany - they don't like foreigners attacking women on bikes so unless there's something we don't know about (actually, you have sharp blades sticking out the sides of your handlebars, or are on Interpol, or the driver is actually the local Mayor) then you'll win.

As an aside, yes, they do call the police about everything. Outside my apartment I saw a police van and they used a megaphone to make some announcement (I don't speak German so don't have a clue - probably 'where are you, Mr white van driver?' anyway ... the problem? A small green car and a white van were touching, where they were parked. The green car driver obviously came back from wherever, saw that the bumper of the white van was touching their car (no damage that I could see) and phoned the police.

They all waited about half an hour - white van man was nowhere to be seen, so the police left and the green car drove away.

[Scoobyqueen]

DELETED

[Luobot]

I since found out my lawyer forgot to register a contract to start proceedings (Strafantrag). He had only brought the case to the attention of the courts (Strafanzeige) which does not start proceeding, but only highlight that a criminal act has been committed. With this contract, the courts would then have had to review all evidence, including the video and call the witnesses for questioning again. So it is the lawyer's fault

Then don't you have a case against the lawyer? Also, can't you appeal the court's decision if they didn't take evidence into account that they could and should have?

In China, even with a policeman present, a deal is often worked out by the individuals involved and that's the end of it. The policeman is there just as a (supposedly) neutral observer to ensure a peaceful resolution to the matter. So I think your conclusion about China is accurate, though I'm afraid it will change as China's legal system and individual Chinese use of it becomes more sophisticated. There's a good and bad side to that. In the US, lawyers would fall over each other to handle your case, smelling easy money. The fear of lawsuits may sometimes help to keep people from acting excessively, and it punishes those who cross the line. On the other hand, there are a lot of abuses of the legal system in the US, including many unnecessary and frivolous lawsuits. The cost of lawsuits, which clog the courts, has to be factored into the cost of doing business and into the daily cost of living for the consumer and taxpayer.

[simonlaing]

I would confirm what Luobot said.

In nanjing there is some arbitrary rule that the damage to the vehicle should more than 800 yuan (I forget the number, but big) for the police to be obligated to write a report and take pictures.

Or if someone has been hurt fairly seriously.

(Though i have seen a bicyclist knocked off his bike by a slow moving car, and the police ask them to sort out something by them selves. )

Also I read on the Chinalawblog.com, that even if the pedestrian/bicyclist is completely in the wrong the driver can still be liable for 10% of damages. (I think this is because if you are rich enough to own a car, you should be able to help with hospital fees)

A second issue is when some kind of vehicular accident happens between a foreigner and a chinese and someone is hurt or killed the foreigner sometimes gets more of the punishment or fault. This heresay story is from back in 2001, in a small town outside Shanghai, nantong or ningbo. A westerner was riding a motorscooter with his girl friend and got into an accident with a small car where a pedestrian on the sidewalk was killed. Although much of the evidence pointed to the fault of the Chinese driver, the westerner was determined to be at fault, (after recovering at the hospital), had to pay a large fine 30,000 yuan and was deported I think.

Anyway, be careful when you're driving.

have fun,

SImon:)

[Sarevok]

This happened to me once during my one year stay in Xi'an last year...

I was riding a bicycle in the evening (could have been around 10 o'clock) returning to the dormitory in the campus with a friend (riding his own bicycle some 10 meters ahead). We were riding in this outer lane, which is supposedly reserved for bicycles, motorbikes and such (I know that Chinese drivers often don't respect this). Then a car came from behind and touched me with the side of its bumper which caused me to fall down... Fortunately, I was unhurt, only had one scratch on my arm, but the bicycle was wrecked. Chinese drivers usually overuse the horns in their cars, but this one didn't hoot his horn even once, so when I heard him coming, it was already late. Well, he stopped the car, and was all apologizing and such... we settled it on the place without calling the police, he promised to repair my bicycle and I decided to believe him, which was probably due to me being in shock at that time since I realized it could have ended up much worse - it could have been me wrecked bad and not just the bicycle. After 2 or 3 days he really called me and brought my bicycle back as good as new, so I guess this was the happy ending...

[Scoobyqueen]

It seems clear .

[gougou]

It seems clear that in societies that work more on the principles of compromise and negotiations

Not trying to defend German Klagefreudigkeit, but the post-accident debates I listened in on in China were anything but based on compromise and negotiations...

I think in your case the problem was not having rules, but the lack of enforcement of them. There obviously are rules against breaking somebody's jaw. Hope that things work out better for you next time!

[zozzen]

If you've a tendency to overreact to and generalize your pity experience, China and the Earth are definitely not a good place to go. In China we're talking about 1.3b people. If 0.001% were murderers you'd be living with 130,000 murderers.

"快點回火星, 地球是很危險的".

-- Stephen Chow

[skylee]

I love that line, zozzen. Thanks.

[cdn_in_bj]

After some praying on this matter I have found what I believe to be a way out. It hinges on some new evidence that has come to light which allows me to bring the case up again.

Good luck, Scoobyqueen! I hope that justice prevails.