汉语 vs 中文

[aimei]

Ok, I was wondering if anybody could tell me when to use hanyu vs zhongwen? When I started studying Mandarin three years ago, my teacher told me that hanyu referred to spoken Chinese, and you should say 我说汉语. She also taught us that 中文 refers more to written Chinese. My current teacher in DC, however, flipped out when I said 我说汉语 in class one day, and insisted that this was incorrect and that I should say 我说中文 instead. When I told her what my previous teacher had taught me, she said hanyu "is like a Communist term!", so maybe her political opinions have something to do with the insistence on zhongwen? I was just curious to get other peoples' opinions.

[skylee]

We've discussed about it on this thread (take a look at #46-55) -> http://www.chinese-forums.com/showthread.php?p=148063

[muyongshi]

I'm gonna bring some of it over here as it seems relevant enough for it's own thread...

However, Do care not to use it in:

i) any legal paper;

ii) any official document;

iii) any research paper on linguistics.

So why do most universities call it 中文系? Not arguing the origins of the word however I think it is often used enough now that it is acceptable in these many of these areas (the linguistics one I could definitely say not to use it unless you are researching the word 中文 )

she said hanyu "is like a Communist term!",

:lol::mrgreen::roll:

[creamyhorror]

she said hanyu "is like a Communist term!",

Well, China is communist... Unless your teacher was teaching you Taiwanese Mandarin or something. Also, as far as I've seen, it's usually 汉语词典 and not 中文词典.

中文系 seems like a perfectly fine term for a department dedicated to the Chinese language. 汉语系 seems a bit more specific, since it casts more of a focus on the language (whereas 中文 seems to carry broader implications of the culture and written traditions).

[roddy]

The correct response to that is to say 'Thanks for reminding me, Comrade.'

In the mainland 汉语 is a perfectly neutral term. Where's your teacher from - grew up in the States, Taiwan, etc?

[randall_flagg]

To me this is a political question as much as anything else. If you call it 汉语 you admit that it is just the language of the Han people (and not even that, really), but you are trying to turn it into the national language at the same time? So that's strange.

中文 on the other hand, would mean that everybody in China (中国） speaks the language, which is not the case. For some reason, 中文 sounds more like written/formal Chinese to me than 汉语。

A few other terms Chinese people use to describe their own language ("Chinese" including "Greater China" and Overseas Chinese): 国语， 华语，中国话，汉文 （which I find weird). I think there are one or two more, but I can't come up with them.

[calibre2001]

To me 漢語 is spoken mandarin. For some reason I feel it's a newer term like 華語,漢民 and perhaps more northern centric. People in the south(Fujian and Guangdong) tend to call china and chinese people as 唐山 and 唐人 respectively (these terms might be outdated though). I think it's perfectly acceptable to use 中文 for all forms of spoken and written chinese languages/dialects. I'm not surprised if mandarin teachers try to enforce on calling it 漢語. It could either be a trend thing or a directive from the education ministry. Ditto on the earlier post that its's more neutral. In China I remember getting asked ‘你會中文嗎？’

[Mugi]

For some reason, 中文 sounds more like written/formal Chinese to me than 汉语。

That would be because 文 refers to the written character, while 语 refers to the spoken word. Hence, it is technically incorrect, as the OP's initial teacher rightly claimed, to say 我说中文, although that doesn't stop many native speakers saying just that (cf native English speakers saying "I ain't got no money"; "the sign says ...").

我说X文/语 is an uncommon utterance though - how often do you have the need to proclaim that "I am speaking / will speak Chinese"?

For "I (can) speak Chinese", omitting the 说 (or 讲) and simply saying 我会中文 is perfectly fine. And although it won't be found in too many textbooks, replacing 中文 or 汉语 with 中国话 usually placates both the prescriptive grammarians and those who have a political or other aversion to 汉语. Having said that, educated people generally don't like the term and technically it could refer to any language spoken in China, although few people actually interpret it that way.

[roddy]

Couple of much earlier threads that might be of interest - from 2004 and 2005.

[muyongshi]

国语， 华语，中国话，汉文 （which I find weird). I think there are one or two more, but I can't come up with them.

I heard a guy once say 中语 and I am NOT mistaken on it. I asked him to clarify and that is what he said.

I also think 中文 is completely fine since we refer to it as 中国 and if you want to be historical about it you could say 中土 so it's 中土的语文 or 中国的语文.

It seems to me as well that I hear 汉语 spoken more than 中文, 华语 and 国语 seem mainly used outside of the mainland and I hear 普通话 a lot as people compliment me on it simply because they are contrasting it to 四川话.

[skylee]

中土 reminds me of LOTR.

[renzhe]

I've also once heard "普通语" by two old ladies in Luoyang, but this might not be the most correct usage.

[aimei]

Roddy, I am kind of confused about where my teacher is from. We are certainly learning the Beijing dialect (I would know since I lived there for a while). I was curious about her background and asked her where he was from and she said in Chinese, "I am a Beijinger, but I worked for a long time in Taiwan," which doesn't make much sense to me, since I don't think mainland ppl could just go to work in Taiwan like that, even now. She also talks about growing up in Taiwan, which is really weird because I am SURE she told me she was a Beijinger. Anyway, strange case.

[Hofmann]

文 was originally a picture of tattoo on someone's chest. Later it meant "writing."

Technically "我說中文" is incorrect because one cannot speak a writing system. Better are "漢語" and "華語."

Still, I'd prefer to state the specific dialect. e.g. "普通話," "廣東話," "上海話."

[Battosai]

Here in Shanghai I never heard anyone refer to Chinese as 汉语

I have heard people refer to it as 上海话 though!

Usually they say 中文

[wschao]

漢語 is a PRC term. In Macau, Hong Kong & Taiwan people alway use 中文!

[tooironic]

Interestingly my first Chinese teacher taught me to say it as 中文. But now that I'm an adult, and also know that technically 中文 refers to the written script, I have to consciously switch my 中文s to 漢語s when saying '我會說...' (you know how when you learn something when you're young it's hard to get it unstuck out of your brain). Ironically, my first Chinese teacher was Taiwanese.

[creamyhorror]

Interestingly my first Chinese teacher taught me to say it as 中文. But now that I'm an adult, and also know that technically 中文 refers to the written script, I have to consciously switch my 中文s to 漢語s when saying '我會說...' (you know how when you learn something when you're young it's hard to get it unstuck out of your brain).

中文 is no more wrong than 漢語 if you're going by Taiwanese/Hongkong standards. I think it's fair to use whatever term's accepted/understood by your community.

Ironically, my first Chinese teacher was Taiwanese.

Why is that ironic at all?

[skylee]

Ironically, my first Chinese teacher was Taiwanese.

Why is that ironic at all?

Indeed, I also wonder why it is ironic.

[creamyhorror]

Indeed, I also wonder why it is ironic.

Maybe the clue is in his nickname