Chinese people and Taiwanese people in London

[rezaf]

I took a break from Chinese and came to London about a week ago to study English during the summer. Maybe a week is not enough for passing a judgment but so far the Chinese and Taiwanese people that I have seen in London and in my school are nothing like the people that I have seen in Shanghai. I have got the impression that they want to stick together and try to avoid communicating with other students. Even when I start speaking to them in my reasonably good Mandarin, they try to stop the conversation and they even don't say hello to me the next day! When I compare them and the Chinese people that I have seen at Leicester square to the super-nice and friendly people in China I really get confused. The other thing that is interesting for me is how Taiwanese people overreact when I ask them "Are you Chinese?" They obviously hate being called Chinese which is again strange for me because in Shanghai many of my Taiwanese friends called themselves Zhongguoren in an unpolitical way of course. Although London is the most cosmopolitan city in the world I feel more racism and more "us and them" amongst different ethnicities and cultures in here. In our school I have seen white European students literally saying racist things about black people quite a few times and as a middle eastern it makes me wonder if they say the same things about us too behind our backs. I miss China:evil: !

[yersi]

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[TCcookie]

I got a surprisingly cold response once from asking a Taiwanese student here at my university if he was from China. I think it's kind of silly to get so up in arms about it. It makes sense to me (as a white American) that Chinese or any other foreign person ask if I'm from Canada or the United States or UK or whatever, and they do--when I was in China I was constantly asked if I was from England (don't know why). Even if the UK were the US's blood enemy (at least imagining it now) it's hard for me to imagine being offended by such a question. Most Taiwanese are Han, so I don't see what the big deal is.

Why might it be such a touchy subject? Obviously, most mostly-white, English-speaking countries are on pretty good terms with each other, so some sort of Taiwanese popular cultural enmity with the mainland must be a pretty big factor. I'm assuming most Taiwanese wouldn't react the way this one student did (as most haven't when I've asked), but the incident surprised me enough that I've thought about it since then, and this thread has renewed my curiosity. Has anyone else had an experience like this? What was the situation? Any Taiwanese want to comment?

[rezaf]

It's different from asking if they are from China. It's like asking an American Jew if he is Jewish. At least they culturally have Chinese roots. My country and Iraq fought a deadly war for many years but if someone calls me an Iraqi I wouldn't mind and in this case our countries have nothing in common. I think that London is too cosmopolitan in a bad way and it causes minorities to get defensive. I have seen a lot of tolerance from the original British people towards minorities(except for an incident when two drunk Britons teased a black man on the street) and I think minorities themselves are the cause of this problem.

[adrianlondon]

I live in London with someone from Taiwan, know many Taiwanese and mainlnd Chinese people, and think your observations can't be scaled up to anything meaningful.

They sound like they're based on the naive often eastern European racist types you find in language schools and on random Taiwanese who probably aren't expecting someone non-asian to suddenly ask them political questions.

Assuming you actually know about Taiwan and China, which I'm 100% sure you do, can't you see that wandering up to people and asking them if they're Chinese is going to be a bit off? Would you wander around Croatia asking random people if they're Serbian? Would you wander Baghdad asking people if they're Kurds? You know it's an identity thing, also caught up in the language (Chinese the race, Chinese fronm China, One China, ABC BBC etc), so I find it hard to believe you're surprised by the responses.

Oh, and being half middle Eastern, I also find your comments that Londoners are racist insulting.

[rezaf]

The racist students that I am talking about are all western European and I was not talking about Britons when I said that. I just saw two Britons teasing a black man on the street a few days ago and I don't go around testing the Taiwanese with "Are you Chinese" there were three incidents when I had a few Chinese questions and I wanted to make sure that they could answer me. I am not saying that the Taiwanese don't have the right to have a separate identity but having seen many Taiwanese in Shanghai, overreaction to the word "Chinese" wasn't what I expected.

I feel something is wrong with the way that London is cosmopolitan which in my view makes people of different races get defensive to some degrees. I have lived in Dubai and Shanghai which are both cosmopolitan but in more harmonious ways. In Dubai where locals are really scarce it's all about making money and all the relationship between people is based on money which is pretty beyond culture or ethnicity therefore you'll see a very comfortable mixture of cultures equally growing together, all united with a single bigger goal; making more money. In Shanghai you'll feel like the whole city is a guest room for foreigners who want to visit or work in China, therefore foreigners act like guests and the Chinese act like the host but in London I am really confused about the role of so many (ethnically) foreigners in the main British texture of the city. I really think that London has gone too far and the only way out is to change the texture of the city completely so that no culture(including the British culture) can take the upper hand which doesn't seem to be very likely to happen soon.

[Asiasy]

An awkward consequence from the civil war

sigh

[wschao]

I am from Macau and live in London (I also lived in Taiwan and Hong Kong before). I don't like but i don't mind being asked 'Are you from China ?' although Macau has been a special adminstrative region in PRC since 1999.

For my four years experience of living in Taipei it seems to me that Taiwanese don't have any problem with regarding themselves as ethnic Chinese. They always think I am not Chinese enough (Mandarin is not my first langage)

[TCcookie]

I wouldn't ask someone if they are "Chinese" simply because that question seems kind of silly to me. I'm more interested in where people are from. If I meet a Chinese person, I'll usually first ask if they are from China because China's huge so it seems like the natural first choice.. If I hear a Taiwanese or Cantonese accent I'll ask if they're from Taiwan or, sometimes, Hong Kong, perhaps subconsciously imagining I'm getting "sensitivity points" by recognizing and acknowledging to the person (who probably takes pride in where he or she is from) that these are separate cultural entities.

Conversationally asking people if they're from China (or any other country you have an interest in) doesn't seem inappropriate to me at all. I would be happy in a foreign country if someone asked me if I'm American and started a conversation out of interest in my heritage and native language (especially if not a lot of people in that country did--if I was in some rural part of China facing "stare-down squads" as have been referenced on this forum, I might have a different reaction, of course). I don't see how asking where someone is from could remotely be considered a "political question."

[Lu]

It's just a fact that many Taiwanese are very, very sensitive about this, and it's rather pointless to be annoyed by that. Now that you know how sensitive an issue this is, just take it into account when you talk with huaren.

Maybe you can try this: in case of a Chinese language question, ask if they are Chinese speakers. I don't think anyone will fall over that.

If you know they are Chinese speakers, ask not 'are you from China' but 'where are you from'. If they say 'from China' (with a look of 'of course, silly, where else'), say 'yes of course, but where in China'.

As to Chinese people not being too interested in speaking Chinese with others, I have a somewhat similar experience. I thought it was a pity, and proceeded to make friends with other nationalities.

Enjoy your summer school!

[calibre2001]

Interestingly, anyone who looks chinese or of chinese descent (meaning not from PRC,taiwan,HK, Macau) would be asked by a mainland chinese person either:-

a)where are you from?

b)do you speak mandarin?

c)what language do you speak to your parents in?

d)what other languages do you speak?

notice that b,c,d are permutations of each other?

The Chinese are straight forward.

[rezaf]

Do the words Putonghua, Zhongwen and Hanyu have the same meanings in Taiwan? Also I remember one of my Taiwanese friends using the word "Hanren" , do you think that it's a safe choice?

[wschao]

Do the words Putonghua, Zhongwen and Hanyu have the same meanings in Taiwan? Also I remember one of my Taiwanese friends using the word "Hanren" , do you think that it's a safe choice?

Zhongwen!! The other two are PRC terms.

[A life of study]

As AdrianLondon said, Londoners are not into racial prejudice. I am a bit surprised with the comparison between London and China. Many of the friendly smiling people in China are actually teasing (or even mocking) the foreigners they meet - and as far as I know most Chinese people would react very differently to a Middle Easterner than to a Westerner. Maybe you don't understand what they are saying behind your back. China is a friendly place, but there is a clear "us and them" here. Everything you do will be put down to your being a foreigner, whether positive or negative. Behind the smiles, the prejudice is probably more deepseated here than in any country in the world. I don't know any Chinese - I have never met any Chinese - who have a positive view of the Arab world or Islam. Maybe you need to speak more Chinese to know that.

[ABCinChina]

Many overseas Chinese people are like this since they are quite frequently or had been subjected to racism. Growing up in the US, I've seen a lot of Chinese people (particularly the ones with bad English, have small eyes, are short/physically weak) getting called "chink", "nip" etc. Stuff like this happens a lot in High School and is not forgotten by College. So when you ask someone, "Are you Chinese" they are offended because usually the term Chinese doesn't carry a good connotation in places like the U.S.

[Lu]

In Taiwan, Putonghua is called Guoyu (but the word putonghua is also understood). Hanyu and Zhongwen are also fine.

I was told that Taiwanese never really say Hanren, from what I've heard most people there are Minnanren as opposed to either Kejiaren or Yuanzhumin. (On the mainland, most people are Hanren as opposed to xiaoshuminzu.) They will understand though, and I'm quite sure nobody will be offended.

[rezaf]

Whenever I say that I am Iranian to Chinese people, they start praising our president(Ahmadinejad) and saying bad things about America, so I think that being a Westerner and an Iranian are very different things in China.

Many of the friendly smiling people in China are actually teasing (or even mocking) the foreigners they meet

Basically I think that most people in the world are racist to some degrees even if they don't show it so it doesn't surprise me if the Chinese feel intimidated when they see a stranger with different looks but what has surprised me in China is how quickly this wall of being a Laowai collapses when they get to know you. Most of the Chinese people that I know in China have done so many unbelievably kind things to me that I never even expect from my own family. Having said that I am not saying that all the Chinese people are like that.

In China I have just seen two or three very minor incidents of racism in about two years but in just two weeks in London I have seen many more racist situations:

One Russian, one Iranian, two Brits and three Italians saying racist things about black people.

3 Brits, one Italian mocking my country and Iranians in front of me without at least bothering to do that behind my back. (Of course I don't mind because the whole religion and nationality issue are very stupid in my view and at the end of the day we are all just the same confused human beings who want to give meaning to our lives with the illusion of religion and nationality.)

The only reason that I can think of is that because London is too cosmopolitan, people (including the Chinese and Taiwanese)become more defensive and sensitive. I don't think that you can get a better result when so many different nations live together in one city and I am sure that Britain has done its best in reducing racism. I am not against London and I think that societies will become more homogeneous as time goes by but it is too soon.

[renzhe]

I don't know any Chinese - I have never met any Chinese - who have a positive view of the Arab world or Islam.

The vast majority of the Chinese I've met didn't have a strong (positive or negative) opinion on either, both in China and abroad.

[wschao]

A life of study

As AdrianLondon said, Londoners are not into racial prejudice

It's true as soon as you are white. I have been living in London for 5 years and have been verbally abused regularly.

[Shadowdh]

I would like to support (at least a little bit) what Wschao has said about Londoners not being into racial prejudice...

To think or believe London has some sort of utopian view of different races that other countries/states dont is naive and frankly wrong.