A number of grammar-related questions 请教

[anonymoose]

I've been looking through Chinese: A Comprehensive Grammar (by Yip Po-Ching and Don Rimmington, published by Routledge), and it's amazing that there's always something new I can glean from it every time I read it.

Anyway, I have a number of questions inspired by, but not solely based on, this book:

1) One sentence given is

明年这个时候，我们正在度假。This time next year we will just be on holiday.

To me this sentence sounds slightly awkward. I would prefer to insert a 会 before 正在, thus:

明年这个时候，我们会正在度假。

Or my own example:

下个星期这个时候，我会正在他家做客。

So, my question is, is it acceptable to insert 会 as I have done, and if so, which version is more natural?

2) If I wanted to say "The meeting continued for over an hour longer (after you left)", could I say

会议再持续了一个多小时 or 会议持续了再一个多小时 ?

The former sounds more natural to me, but the latter also seems possible logically.

3) One sentence given is

我见过他两次。 I have met him twice.

Would it be acceptable to add a 面 to the end of this sentence, thus 我见过他两次面。If so, which sounds more natural?

4) According to the book, completed action in location-object sentences is expressed either by the verb and direction indicator (ie. 下来 or 上去) or by placing 了 after the first element in the indicator and omitting the second (ie. 来 or 去). For example:

松鼠爬上树去。

松鼠爬上了树。

My question is, would it be considered incorrect to place 了 at the end of the first sentence, ie. 松鼠爬上树去了。?

5) Similar to the previous question, these 3 sentences are OK:

服务员提了一只箱子进来。

服务员提进来了一只箱子。

服务员提进一只箱子来。

But would it not be possible to say

服务员提进一只箱子来了。?

6) I guess this fits into the same category as the previous two questions.

他们把楼上的家具搬到楼下去。

Could 了 be included in the above sentence as

他们把楼上的家具搬到了楼下去。 ?

7) One sentence given is

他 在 一年 之内 两次 打破 了 世界 记录 。

Could the 两次be placed after 了?

他 在 一年 之内 打破 了 两次 世界纪录 。

8 ) One sentence given is

每天 早晨 七点钟 ， 弟弟 还 睡 得 很 香 的 时候 ， 我 就 背 着 书包 上学 去 了 。 Every morning at 7 o’clock, while younger brother is still fast asleep, I go off to school with my satchel on my back.

What is the function of 了 at the end of this sentence?

9) The book says the phrase 一 个个 旅客 means ‘every passenger’, and that 一个 一个 地 means ‘one after another’, but then later says 一个 个 地 means ‘one by one’ (which I think means the same as ‘one after another’). So do 一个 个 地 and 一个 一个 地 mean the same, and if so, why does 一个 个 in the first phrase quoted mean ‘every’? I suspect it may be because the former is adjectival whereas the latter is adverbial, but I’d like confirmation.

*

OK, I'll probably have more questions as I continue going through the book, but I'd be grateful if anyone would like to comment on these nine so far.

Thanks!

[skylee]

I like replying to your posts.

My views -

1) I would add 會 in the sentences.

2) I would say 你離開後，會議再開了一個多小時. i.e. 再 verb 了.

3) Instead of 我见过他两次面, I would say 我跟他見過兩次面.

4) 松鼠爬上树去了 is all right. But I guess I would say 松鼠爬到樹上去了.

5) I would say 服務員提了一隻箱子進來.

6) I would say 他們把樓上的家具搬到樓下去了.

7) Both sentences are OK.

8 ) I don't know the answer.

9) Contexts please.

[Annaliu]

Your Chinese level is very high:)

your questions is not clear by lots of Chinese people, they are not one or two sentences can be say clear.

I will explain them one by one in future several days.

The first is:

明年这个时候，我们会正在度假。

这里不可以加“会”，here you can not insert 会。

Firstly, you know 会 is modal word.

1) get some ability through study. 他会游泳。

2) can realize some target in future. 明天他会来。表示肯定。

in this example, 我们正在度假 is a forecast.

我们会度假 is also a forecast, these two expression are correct.

But, if you use them together, it is false, so the forecast are not used two times.

[hellish]

My view on Question 8

了 means 'already' ie. 'I have alreay gone off to school'

[Sam Addington]

It's late and I'm sleepy, but wouldn't 会 imply more of an uncertainty ... I may be on vacation rather than I will be on vacation?

As for the other questions, I'll examine them later.

Goodnight

[semantic nuance]

My views

on 1: 明年這個時候, 我們會去度假.

on 2: 你離開後，會議又開了一個多小時.

on 9: Your sense is right. 一個個 (的) is adjectival here. 一個一個地 or 一個個地 is adverbial.

[Hanyu'sWay]

On sentence number seven 两次打破　is much better. 打破两次　has the flavor of a dangling modifier.

[Sam Addington]

Number 8:

每天 早晨 七点钟 ， 弟弟 还 睡 得 很 香 的 时候 ， 我 就 背 着 书包 上学 去 了 。 Every morning at 7 o’clock, while younger brother is still fast asleep, I go off to school with my satchel on my back.

Perfective mood. I have already done it.

[creamyhorror]

1) For some reason, the most natural phrasing to my ears would be:

明年这个时候，我们会在度假。

正在 seems weird to use here, like annaliu said. I feel 会 is necessary when stating actions/events that will occur in future. Clearly many would disagree with me, so take that with a grain of salt.

7) This also seems fine to me:

他 在 一年 之内 打破 了 世界纪录 两次。

8 ) 了 gives the main clause (?) a more definite "completed"/perfective tone, like you're saying "while my brother's still sound asleep, I'm already out of the house and off to school." Without the 了, it sounds like you're neutrally narrating what you usually do: "while my brother's still sound asleep, I leave the house for school." I'm tempted to say that the 就 also plays an emphatic role ("at which point"), and often accompanies this sort of usage of 了. Maybe there's further information in the sticky on 了.

By the way, you could also use 已经 in place of 就 to emphasise the perfective aspect further.

The difference in mood/meaning produced by 了 is subtle and often not incredibly important, so you might not want to worry too much if you've mastered the main usages of it.

9) 一个个旅客 seems to mean "each and every passenger" (rather than merely "every passenger"). So there's probably a bit more semantic overlap than you initially thought.

In general, I want to add that Chinese is pretty flexible grammatically at the colloquial level, so sometimes you might want to just accept that there's no clear or generally accepted difference in meaning or implication between two alternative phrasings of a sentence. Just my personal semi-educated opinion, though.

Edited August 12, 2008 at 12:32 PM by creamyhorror

[Annaliu]

5) Similar to the previous question, these 3 sentences are OK:

服务员提了一只箱子进来。

服务员提进来了一只箱子。

服务员提进一只箱子来。

But would it not be possible to say

服务员提进一只箱子来了。?

This is the usage of the auxiliary word “了”, it is very complex.

这里涉及的是助词“了”的应用，情况复杂。

1) Say it simply, vt+了 + objective, the keystone is tendency of action.

简单地说，谓语动词后边有宾语时，“了”应该位于宾语前：动词+“了”+宾语。如：

For example:

昨天我看(vt)了一个电影(objective)。

上列例句1是谓语动词（提）后既有宾语（箱子），又有复合趋向补语（进来），表示服务员的运动方向，用的是“动词+‘了’+宾语+补语”的句式。强调的是趋向（进来）；

2) vt+complement+了+objective, the keystone is the result of action

例句2用的是“动词+补语+‘了’+宾语”的句式，强调的是结果（进来了）；

3) 了 be passed over because the tendency complement such as 进，来can also express the status of action, so 了 can be omited. It is right.

例句3省略了“了”，因为趋向补语（进、来）都能表示出动作（提）状态已经发生、出现，所以“了”可以省去，而没有语法的错误；

4) Yet, the fourth sentence, 了 in the end of sentence, not only semantic repeat but also 了 after the objective, so it is solecism.

但是，例句4句末加了一个“了”字，不但语义重复，而且用在了宾语之后，造成语法错误。