Chinese Girl Shouldn't Date Much?

[lubYossie]

Hey guys:

I was hoping some Chinese females and males could shed some light on a dating issue for me. I am a Chinese female and recently had a conversation with my mother on dating, well one of many conversations. She says that in traditional culture, it's incredibly inappropriate for a Chinese female to date a lot of guys. I've dated two guys and that apparently is too much for her and she says that in traditional culture, girls should marry the guy that they date or otherwise, they're seen as promiscuous. Has anyone else encountered this or is aware of this viewpoint?

Thanks.

[hidden12345]

Just tell her that mathematically the odds of you encountering someone you actually like enough to marry within the first two or three people you date are so low, that it would be a waste of energy to even go out with that person any further once you discover they are not the one, hence, the need to change to a more suitable partner.

[simonlaing]

This is a depends who and where to talk to people question.

In the bigger cities like Shanghai and Beijing dating lots of people is seen as normal. My experience is with Nanjing and Suzhou (before it became a suburb of Shanghai) two 2nd tier cities.

Here in Nanjing we're in a transition. Most Chinese girls try to marry the first person they fall love with, usually their first boyfriend.

There are some Chinese guys who want to at least have the illusion that the girl they are marrying is a virgin. (New is best) So for some traditionalist there can be some looking down on girls who have dated many.

Some thoughts on this is the roles of and idea of a good wife and husband in China in my opinion are different than the US. Also the pressure to get married and have kids before 30 is particularly strong on women here.

Now some of these are also desired by Western women but China seems more matter of fact and practical rather than the idealistic US.

Some Chinese Women here seem to desire a man with stability, in job and temperament. That can provide materially, for them and their parents. While keep good social standing. ( so if they go to prostitutes, they are discrete about it). Being slightly to much taller than the woman is important so the children are taller.

-certain things like having a sixpack stomach, handsome face, romantic way of wooing, being funny and witty are bonuses that are seen as more important in the US it seems.

-The biggest test several woman give a guy is if he can control not drinking too much and when drunk can control his temper. (Not a bad test if you ask me)

The guys have different desires as well, pretty face, shorter height that them, basic education but not higher education or higher salary than them. (face issues come into play such as the derogatory house husband name) If not University sweet heart They are usually several years older than the woman in order to buy the house, get a good job and have money (nowadays = a car), the 3 requirements of showing material stability.

In China since the grandparents have a major part in helping raise the kids and once into elementary school 110% is spent preparing for the gao kao entrance exam. Making sure you agree on child raising issues is not as important. (Many couples leave the kid(s) with the grandparents in rural suburbs for months at a time while they pursue their careers.) Schools are not free and getting them into a good school which gets them a good test score and set them up for life. The kids are the Chinese people's retirement policy often as well.

I have heard many hua ren , European CHinese and Chinese Americans tell me that they are more traditional abroad than in the mainland. So be ready for that effect, as they don't want to lose the Chinese culture.

Espicially if you 26 or under I think meeting different people and learning what characteristics are important to you helps in relationships and most people go through phases. But everyone is different. Good luck talking with your mother about these issues.

Also there are many exceptions to these broad generalizations (esp. in BJ and Shanghai), but I think understanding the general ideas on what is important to traditional chinese young people can help understand and communicate with people.

Have fun,

Simon:)

P.S. I hope this doesn't come off judgemental. I think because of culture and history things are just different. Before when travel was limited (by hukou and other reasons, people's choices were limited, also your choice had to be approved by the party. So I guess when people found someone fairly suitable they held on tight) I think traditional Chinese people are quite practical.

Edited August 12, 2008 at 06:10 AM by simonlaing
seemed a bit negative at first

[self-taught-mba]

Because just like in the West 50-100 years ago dating in China has a purpose: marriage.

In the West it has evolved into an activity or a temporary way to have relationships. Not many 16/17/18 or 22 year old women date with the goal of marriage in mind. A boyfriend should lead to marriage in China.

[bottledpoetry]

Hey,

I've definitely also been on the receiving end of such warnings from my parents. What she says may have been true 40 years ago (but then go back a hundred years and foot binding was in vogue) but now, I would say that you're just fine.

There's a bit of parental exaggeration in there too Dating two guys will not scarlet letter-fy you in most of the world, including China. Btw, I'm Chinese-American, so I get this message quite a bit as well. I think the best thing to do is heed her general warning--but you set your standards of what's appropriate or not.

[cdn_in_bj]

I have heard many hua ren , European CHinese and Chinese Americans tell me that they are more traditional abroad than in the mainland.

Traditional in what sense? I'm not sure about traditional, but in my experience overseas Chinese tend to at least be more conservative.

I read an interesting study that looked at how immigrants tended to be more conservative compared with those in their homeland, and this study was dealing with several ethnic groups, not just Chinese. It takes a certain mindset to immigrate, and when they do arrive in the new land, they tend to seek out those with a similar background. This I suppose would also help to strengthen traditions.

Also, in the case of China, there is this little thing called the Cultural Revolution which had a profound effect on the mainland. And also the industrial and economic revolutions from the 80's onwards. So if you're referring to overseas Chinese who immigrated from HK or Taiwan, then as a whole they definitely do tend to be more conservative. As well as the very early immigrants from the mainland, who were mostly scholars.

But I'm not sure I'd say that overseas Chinese are necessarily more traditional - in my 3 years here I've found mainlanders to be very traditional in many respects, while also being very "open" in others.

[BrandeX]

Times, they are 'a changin'. Western countries used to be this way too. Such thinking will soon be the way of the past here, and right now is the transition period.

[outcast]

Hey guys:

I was hoping some Chinese females and males could shed some light on a dating issue for me. I am a Chinese female and recently had a conversation with my mother on dating, well one of many conversations. She says that in traditional culture, it's incredibly inappropriate for a Chinese female to date a lot of guys. I've dated two guys and that apparently is too much for her and she says that in traditional culture, girls should marry the guy that they date or otherwise, they're seen as promiscuous. Has anyone else encountered this or is aware of this viewpoint?

Thanks.

lubYossie is offline Report Post

Don't listen to her. This is the 21st century, and things are changing. If she wants to live in the past, thats her choice, but dont let her drag you down with her.

[self-taught-mba]

Don't listen to her. This is the 21st century, and things are changing. If she wants to live in the past, thats her choice, but dont let her drag you down with her.

Because she is certainly trying to drag you down with what worked out well for her. Studies have shown that as the age of marriage goes up so does the divorce rate. Our modern day divorce rate/infidelity rate/lifetime sexual partners must certainly be better than the past.

Bet her generation didn't need immunizations for HPV at age 12. (US)

Anticipated (common) responses:

1) abusive husbands/relationships - true, and tragic but a tradeoff

2) unhappy marriages - see stats for average happiness

3) no freedom/independence for women - partly true. slave to husband in the past, now a slave to the corporation and work. In the past couldn't work; now you have to. Do you have a choice not to work now? You have simply traded one form of restriction for another.

[Lu]

1) abusive husbands/relationships - true, and tragic but a tradeoff

A tradeoff if it's someone else who's beaten by her husband. If it's you yourself, it's not a tradeoff for anything, it's just misery.

3) no freedom/independence for women - partly true. slave to husband in the past, now a slave to the corporation and work. In the past couldn't work; now you have to. Do you have a choice not to work now? You have simply traded one form of restriction for another.

In the past, there was no such thing as not working, you had to work in the house, have babies, do the housework, with never a day off, no money for yourself, and no retirement. Now, you can choose your job, have days off, have your own money => not be dependent on your husband if he decides to cheat you, treat you badly, or leave you.

[self-taught-mba]

1) I didn't mean a tradeoff on an individual level. More stable marriages/families but also more potential for unhappiness/abuse. I mean the old way sucked in many ways especially for the women who got an abusive husband. But the new way also sucks and for many more. Now it takes 2 income earners both working longer hours, and no one is watching the kids.

3) Illusion. Before you couldn't work. You can't really decide not to work now. In the past you had to hope for a good husband. If you got one he loved you and took care of you. The corporations do neither - nor should they according to theory (knowledge workers are changing this). And working women still get more than their share of the housework when both people work as a remnant of the old way. (not fair maybe) Modern day choices also have limits and women now often have to sacrifice their child's development (if she wants them and can afford them now) at the alter of her career. In the past maybe she had to sacrifice herself (which sucks and is not fair maybe), but now the kids (more than one on average) get sacrificed.

In the past men weren't free either. A man couldn't stay at home. A man without a job? Shameful, couldn't be imagined, and he had to bear the burdern of supporting his wife/family and be a "real man". Men for centuries broke their backs in the fields and coal mines (and the offices) for their families. (and unfortunately sometimes abused their power at home or took it out on the wife) Now you have the independence to leave your husband, but now you are in the same shackles of the labor force (salary now lower since supply doubled).

Different systems. Both have tradeoffs.

[Lu]

I forgot to add: for most of history, women did work outside of the home. The times when wife could stay at home with husband made money for the entire family were an exception, and didn't last long.

I mean the old way sucked in many ways especially for the women who got an abusive husband. But the new way also sucks and for many more. Now it takes 2 income earners both working longer hours, and no one is watching the kids.

This sucks more for you, no doubt, but not necessarily for women. Also, this seems to be only applicable in the US. In Holland a family can actually live on one income, although not very affluently (can't afford a second car and the newest model flatscreen). It might be a problem of the system used in that country.

And working women still get more than their share of the housework when both people work as a remnant of the old way. (not fair maybe)

No 'maybe' there. If both spouses are working outside the house, there is no conceivable reason why they shouldn't both do an equal amount of housework and taking care of the kids.

Either way, there's no going back, at least not in the western world. Women have their own jobs and make their own money, and choose their own partners, whom they can break up with or divorce if things don't work out.

I'd advice the OP to take bottledpoetry's advice and set her own standards on what's appropriate, and if her mother can't handle how and whom you date, don't tell her more than she wants to know.

[celticagent]

In American culture, if you don't date more than 2 people, you are considered "inexperienced" and unworthy.

[feebie]

Is it to do with the idea of destiny?

That the first person you meet you are destined to be brought together?

In my limited experience it seems people in China are concerned about their reputation. Conformity is important. What others think is important.

This exists to a certain extent everywhere. Although I think it is less pronounced in Australia (especially in Sydney) where it is more live and let live. So as long as you are not hurting anyone it is okay.

What does your mother think about Chinese boys? Should they date?

Does she still have ideas that girls should be "pure" whatever that means?

I personally think that I learn from each of my dating experiences. I learn what I do want and what I don't want.

My mum married the first one and regretted it.

But then again no relationship is perfect and sometimes I wish I just stayed with the first one. Every relationship has it's good and bad points.

I guess it was not that long ago that contraception was invented.

Before contraception I guess it was more important to marry the first person you went out with. Values still remain from pre-contraception times. At some stage a child out of wedlock was seriously disadvantaged. So it was a necessity to marry the first person you had a relationship with. Also women were economically dependent on men.

Now days people are left to follow nature without the consequences and responsibility of a baby.

In the West the sexual revolution happened. "free love" --- in a time before HIV/AIDS and contraception available people were able to embrace their animal side (natural side) and enjoy.

Anyway how old are you?

I think you should decide whether you should date a lot or marry the first one.

As a Westerner I would say "it is your life do what you want with it"

Although I do have an awareness that in Chinese society it might not so easy to follow your own heart and most of you consider how your parents and the rest of society feel.

As a westerner I would say their is not right or wrong answer to this question. Dating many people or marring the first one --- both could feel like the right thing for different people.

Maybe you are discerning and you have not gone with the first one because he was not good enough / suitable.

I think your lifelong happiness is more important than thinking about what the gossipy neighbors think.

[BJ220051]

I think american culture is stupid as hell (If america has a so-called culture, roughly it is about sex). People who date less than 2 people are considered as 'inexperience' and unworthy. It is really funny. I think if you have life goal and know what kind of life you want , and also as to sex, I think if you sex with one person a few times, it is enough for you to know how to do it. It is so stupid experiencing more people to know how to hanlde the people.

Those who date for considering for marriage are not practical at all. Nobody is asked to marry to first man here too, especially for university students. Normally chinese wont date with someone easily. after a few times gethering with group friends or some occasion, to slightly make sure what the person is like, such as personality, then they consider to get dating or something. unlike westerners, geting together at first sight and the like.

Chinese still have very strong family values. unlike westerners, once you think youself is not comfortable with marriage, then one of you pose a request for divorce. Divorce is still considered with caution. Chinese have never step into divorce easily. Responsibilities is more important here. When you get married, you have right and at the same time you have responsibilities too. There is no too many couples who are abused in marriage (If you consider extreme cased, like criminals).

I think decent chinese dont like western way at all, excepte vanity and selfish chinese who consider himself/herself life too much would choose western country and life without considering other family members.

even though chinese tend to be more liberal than before, they wont follow into western way finally. they have their own way to follow.

In China, women have more choices too. There is no certain rule which tell woman should do housework or not. It completely depends on couples themselves, even though women still are roles in housework. It is no need to talk about equality like the west. Who love to do more chors, who do. It is all about CARE.

[yonglin]

In American culture, if you don't date more than 2 people, you are considered "inexperienced" and unworthy.

In my experience, many Americans are actually quite conservative with regard to family values (more so than in most of Europe, at least): a large number of Americans are quite religious and, within such circles, there could be quite a strong pressure not to have sex before marriage (many couples will still date on a kiss/hug/hold hand basis, but so do most Chinese people as well without being considered promiscuous).

Normally chinese wont date with someone easily. after a few times gethering with group friends or some occasion, to slightly make sure what the person is like, such as personality, then they consider to get dating or something. unlike westerners, geting together at first sight and the like.

I would think that getting together "at first sight" is statistically a very rare phenomenon. Most couples just get to know each other by means of common friends. Life isn't like a Hollywood movie, not even in America.

I think decent chinese dont like western way at all, excepte vanity and selfish chinese who consider himself/herself life too much would choose western country and life without considering other family members.

So you are implying that all Chinese people getting married to foreigners are indecent? There are quite a lot of people on this forum married to Chinese people, and you may want to think twice before you insinuate them and their spouses.

And yes, I did take offence in reading this thread. I think cultural stereotyping is pretty bad in general, irrespective of whether it has to do with stereotyping Chinese people as backwards and conservative, or western people as immoral/indecent/sex monsters. Quite certainly, you'll find both types in both places.

[jbradfor]

also as to sex, I think if you sex with one person a few times, it is enough for you to know how to do it. It is so stupid experiencing more people to know how to hanlde the people.

You're hysterically funny. Not on purpose, I know, but I still laughed out-loud at this. You think people have sex as practice, to learn how to do it? You are a virgin, aren't you? Either that, or you really need to find a better lover.

Sorry, back on topic, I digressed. As to the OP's question, my three thoughts.

1) feebie's point as to "destiny" I think is very important. I know even in the west people talk about being "destined" to meet, but I think this is much more important in Asia. And if you're destined to be together, why look for anyone else?

2) The expectation for what marriage provides is much higher in the west than in China (but is changing fast). So finding someone "close enough" is easier. Also, traditionally "dating" in China didn't allow one to get to know the person as well a dating in the west does, so there's less benefit in dating several people.

3) The concern for woman's "purity" is still higher in China. [Note that in the USA, there is a small but sizable proportion of people with quite conservative values regarding dating and marriage and gender roles. But you would never know it from our media.]

[BJ220051]

Indeed, it is hysterically funny to pratice that. Chinese dont date with many people to learn how to judge people and know what kind of people you like, and dont only consider steady job thing and so on. Of course, it is important thing to have a steady family. Everything gets togther. Take university students for example, it is not really important thing since for those who could take less risk about future compared to people who do not go to university. Of course, exceptions happen. a large of number university students cannot find job easily like before, especially recent years. A lot of them are forced to pursue higher degree. Anyway, it is another thing.

traditionally "dating" in China didn't allow one to get to know the person as well a dating in the west does, so there's less benefit in dating several people:help

What does that mean?

I know some poeple are quite conservative in the west, especially religous people. Family structure are much more consertive than chinese. I dont talk about those people. I talke about the oppiste part, the majorities. I have met a few buddies, who dont want to get marriage just want make more 'close' friends. (sh) They said getting teghter is for fun. Chinese dont have this part. Dont need to distinguish which one is friend and which one is lover. It seems that this problem really bugs some people. at least, I have met a few.

Why you think i watch too much hollywood moives?

[Artem]

Why you think i watch too much hollywood moives?

Probably because your whole view of America is extremely bias and one sided; and it is also very clear that you have never actually been in America.

Not only is everything you said extremely insulting. It is simply wrong.

You are NOT considered unworthy because you only dated two or fewer people. You are considered inexperienced in all aspects, not just sex. You learn a lot from dating; for most people dating improves as you date more people.

People don't just get together on first time as you have been lead to believe.

Maybe people get together at first sight for sex in clubs and such, but the same thing happens in China. I'm sure you just have never been to a club. I'm sure you'll say that only happens in big cities, but obviously that kind of thing that doesn't happen in small cities in America.

I think decent chinese dont like western way at all, excepte vanity and selfish chinese who consider himself/herself life too much would choose western country and life without considering other family members.

Wow. I don't even know where to begin. You just came into a forum full of people who support China, study the language, and participate in the culture, and insulted pretty much 90% of them. You insulted every westerner as well as any Chinese person who is open minded to indulge in culture other than his/her own.

It is arrogant comments like that shine people away from China and its culture.

I suggest you rethink your ways.

Reading your comments made me remember every terrible arrogant and racist person I have met in China that made my experience that much worse. Good thing that for everyone of those people, I met ten who were open minded and pleasant. Those people have me coming back for more.

[BrandeX]

You think people have sex as practice, to learn how to do it?

Sure! Haven't you seen "Lust Caution"? A chinese film wherein they have sex to practice how to do it.