Is this true?

[bluemonkey]

I came across this recently:

http://www.pinyin.info/readings/texts/moser.html

It's a quite long but very well written article which explains the difficulty in learning Chinese. Some of the most notable things which stuck out to me are:

1. The whole '3000 characters' to read a newspaper isn't true. Just because you recognise the character being used, you're far from understanding the meaning. For example, you may notice 'up' and 'tight', but you probably wouldn't know the meaning of 'uptight'.

2. Someone who has been learning Chinese for 10 years was quoted in the article saying that he still can't read Chinese properly and it takes hours just to read a few pages.

3. The author of the article has been studying Chinese for 6 years, he teaches in a Chinese university. He was writing a sick note to another colleague and forgot the Chinese character for the word 'sneezing'. So he asked the 3 Ph.D students who majored in Chinese and not one of them could remember the character for 'sneeze. These were native, extremely well educated students, who couldn't remember such a simple word in their own language. Needless to say, this would never happen with a native English speaker who had a Ph.D in English.

Now I understand that you get as much out as you put in, but I'd like to know from some experienced Chinese learners (5 years+) if this is infact the reality I'd be facing? Will I be able to read a newspaper to a good degree of understanding after learning the most common 3000 characters?

[roddy]

That article has been discussed at great length on here previously. However given that this was quite some time ago and it's a bit unreasonable to ask everyone to read the whole thing, I'll leave this open for a new discussion. However, you may want to read the old one and steal the best arguments.

[renzhe]

1. This is correct, but only because there is a misunderstanding when it comes to reading characters. Learning the meaning of a character is not the end, because character combine to make words. If you can read 3000 characters and know about 10,000 words composed of them, you should be able to read most materials and look up the odd word or character you don't know.

2. The success at learning Chinese is individual. There are certainly people like this, but there are also many people who get a decent grasp of the language in a few years. The more you put in and practice, the more you get out.

3. The PhDs probably knew the character, but forgot how to write it exactly because of not writing it often. This is similar to people having trouble spelling very rare words in English and becoming more prevalent in the age of computer typing -- people don't write out characters by hand.

Don't be discouraged. Chinese is difficult, but it's not impossible.

[character]

"Why Chinese Is So Damn Hard" doesn't take into account the benefits computerization has had on learning Chinese.

Using the program Wenlin as an example:

- it lets you write unfamiliar characters to find their definition

- it takes pinyin and gives you a list of characters to choose from when writing

- it lets you load a document and gives you the definition of characters/words when you hover the mouse over them.

So if you don't need to take a pen and write characters from memory, then you can get by with a more passive knowledge of them (mainly recognize them and slowly copy unfamiliar ones when they are in front of you (to look them up in a program)).

All that said, learning Chinese is fiendishly difficult.

[ange9s]

I run into a lot of guys who've been studying 10+ years and still can't have a conversation or read a newspaper, then you see those guys online saying:"I became fluent in 20 languages in just two weeks using my patented phenomic technique, and you can, too!"

[bluemonkey]

Damn, 10 years and still can't have a conversation!

I'm hoping to be able to hold my own in conversations within 3 years. Right now, I've been studying for about 5 months and I know the basics (introductions, family, months, numbers, festivals, pets, hobbies, professions, nationalities, seasons and grammar rules), but I learn 汉字 and pinyin. I wonder if I'm going to be on course.

[renzhe]

Are you learning on your own, or with a teacher? Do you have native speakers to practice with? How much time do you spend? Which textbook do you follow?

There are many useful hints on these forums for learners, I recommend reading through them. Get an SRS flashcard program, check out our TV episodes project, practice daily, and it's certainly doable.

Many people underestimate the effort it takes to really learn Chinese, and they get disappointed, and turn into the 10 year cases like those. Don't get discouraged, arm yourself with patience, read up on other people's experiences, and you can certainly meet your goal.

[bluemonkey]

I have a native tutor who I see for 2 hours/week, she's very good, speaks better English than most native English and is able to teach me all the modern phrases which books don't have. I probably spend about an hour studying at least everyday, sometimes 2 or 3. The majority of my time is spent trying to remember the Chinese characters. Other than the tutor, I'm unable to have Chinese conversations. I start university in September, and there's a lot of Chinese students in the UK, so I'll probably get plenty of practice then.

The textbook I use is Learn Chinese With Me, it's meant for US high school kids. I also use ZDT flashcards (as I use Mac), I've been thinking about getting Rosetta Stone, just the price is far too high. I also started a blog a few days ago at http://learningchineseblog.blogspot.com/ , though this is only really meant for me as it helps me to revise old stuff which I've already learnt.

This article was just a reality check, if I can't hold my own in a conversation after 3 years of studying for 1 hour/day, then it's not really worth my time and I might aswell quit now.

[renzhe]

Sounds like you're doing most things right as it is. I wouldn't worry about it, I don't know anyone who was conversational after 5 months of study, other than the people who did intensive courses in China or Taiwan.

You might want to look into chinesepod and our Grand First Episode Project. You will need a lot of exposure to conversation. And yes,revising characters is indeed difficult, but if you keep at it, it gets easier.

Aim to learn more than 2000 characters and more than 5000 words by the end of 2-3 years, and aim to see several hundred hours of TV or audio material in Chinese. If you manage this, you should be fine. This is difficult, but certainly doable.

EDIT: Also, I'm not sure if ZDT supports spaced repetition (it automatically schedules cards for you based on how well you do), but if it doesn't, you will need a program that does (like Anki). You will need this, really.

Edited August 21, 2008 at 09:23 PM by renzhe

[Hedge]

If it takes you 10 years to hold a conversation you must be doing something wrong. Or studying on and off..

With hard work you should be able to hold at least simple, daily conversations after a year. Ive been studying for about a year now and I regularly go out with Chinese friends who don't speak English. I manage fine, though they often have to explain things I don't understand (using Chinese of course) and I often say the wrong words, but that's just amusing!

It just takes dedication and hard work, complaining or rationalizing why Chinese is so hard wont make you conversational (Im not saying you are).

[bluemonkey]

Thanks for the responses.

@renzhe

Yeah, I've found ChinaPod quite useful, I think I'll use it a lot more in future as their beginner stuff tends to be covered in my book in more detail and structure. I'm definitely going to look into that Grand First Episode thing, I checked out a lower intermediate episode and I seem to recognise some of the characters, but it's far too fast so I think it'll be a nice challenge to work my way through one and see how it goes.

ZDT does schedule flashcards I think. You pick which ones you'd like to see, if you fail to get one correct, it adds it to the back of the pile so you're able to keep going until you've got them all correct. You're also able to toggle the character/pinyin and definition so you can revise how you'd like. I also use it a lot as a translator, combined with Sogou.

@Hedge

Thanks, that's reassuring. May I ask how you've been studying over the last year? Do you put a certain amount of time a day, tutor, courses, ect?

[Hedge]

Ive been doing around 15 hours a week with a tutor, and about 7 hours a week self study. Recently I have increased self study a lot though.

Whats been most beneficial for me is using a SRS system (Im using Anki), and just talking a lot. I recently changed what I do with my tutor. We used to work through a textbook, me sitting in class remembering Hanzi and revewing the lessons, tutor explaining. Now we spend the first hour, hour and a half just talking about anything. Then we move on to lessons, but I never do Hanzi learning in class anymore. That stuff I can do by myself. Class is for talking, asking questions and getting feedback on my pronunciation (using Chinese as much as possible).

I should also mention that I have been living in Shanghai for a year, which has given me many opportunities for exposure to the language. Things like having a Ayi and a Chinese landlord gives me weekly practice. For instance, last week my landlord took me to a wine tasting party with only Chinese people (he does not speak English). I think that because I always try to use my Chinese when I can, it has helped me make friends which gives me even more opportunities to practice (and meet nice people)!

Good luck!

[bluemonkey]

Cool, there's not many tutors in my area so about $30USD/hour is the going rate for a decent Chinese tutor face to face... so I couldn't afford 15 hours/week! I looked through your posts though and found that Princeton immersion course pretty cool, I'm thinking about doing something like that next summer, I wonder if they accept UK students.

I also start university in a month, so there will be plenty of Chinese students around to practice with, plus free language courses provided by the university, so I should be set.

[Hedge]

They accept students from all countries, not just US:)

[imron]

If it takes you 10 years to hold a conversation you must be doing something wrong. Or studying on and off..

I agree with this statement. The key to learning Chinese (and really just about anything) is to have continued practice over a sustained period of time. If you are spending an hour a day, everyday, then your language skills should develop a decent pace.

[Hedge]

The trick is to get into a habit of studying every day. Making something become a habit isn't easy, but what you should try to do is study at least a bit every day. So, if one day you have a lot of other obligations or you are just tired of studying; clock in five minutes of studying. Even just 1 minute! That way studying Chinese is part of your daily routine and you avoid falling into the trap of not studying for a prolonged period.

[self-taught-mba]

3. The PhDs probably knew the character, but forgot how to write it exactly because of not writing it often. This is similar to people having trouble spelling very rare words in English and becoming more prevalent in the age of computer typing -- people don't write out characters by hand.

No, that is not what he said. Often, as he mentions, when a character is forgotten they can't even begin to get it down on paper. They can't sound it out like we can in English.

2) The article was written long before the current set of computer tools.

3) The article mentioned 10 years and still can't read properly not hold a conversation

4) He is not talking about himself; he speaks better than anyone on this board. He has hosted his own TV shows in Chinese.

[imron]

he speaks better than anyone on this board.

With exception of maybe one or two of the native speakers.

David Moser does have excellent Chinese, and actually when replying above I didn't realise what thread this was in, and my comment was referring to the general case of someone supposedly "studying" for 10 years and not being able to have a conversation.

[renzhe]

I'm definitely going to look into that Grand First Episode thing, I checked out a lower intermediate episode and I seem to recognise some of the characters, but it's far too fast so I think it'll be a nice challenge to work my way through one and see how it goes.

It can be disheartening in the beginning, but if you use a good dictionary and the pause button a lot, you will eventually finish an episode. It does wonders for your reading (subtitles!) and dictionary skills, on top of listening practice.

ZDT does schedule flashcards I think. You pick which ones you'd like to see, if you fail to get one correct, it adds it to the back of the pile so you're able to keep going until you've got them all correct

I don't know if this is sufficient. I'd recommend something like Anki (there is a Mac version), which will calculate exactly how long you need to wait until you see the card again. It drastically reduces the number of cards you need to review and enables you to learn many more with the same effort.

[Lu]

About the 10 years and still can't hold a conversation: I've met many, many Chinese speakers who said the exact same thing about English. Yet I don't think anyone would argue that English is impossible to learn.