Can foreigners ever understand Chinese culture?

[Yang Rui]

There seems to be a consensus among many of my Chinese friends that non-Chinese people will never understand Chinese culture. If i express a view that is different to the generally held view in China, i am often patronisingly told that i don't understand because i'm a foreigner.

There's certainly a lot i don't know or understand about China, but does not being Chinese mean i can never understand?

Is this only a mainland view, or a general Chinese view?

[xuechengfeng]

I'd hate to hear the people who hold these beliefs tell this to those non-Chinese who dedicate their lives to studying the culture!

[geek_frappa]

did your friends take their medication today?

[galitonwu]

Lots of Chinese have this view.

But, there is not this view except Chinese.

[39degN]

There's certainly a lot i don't know or understand about China, but does not being Chinese mean i can never understand?

certainly not true, there are so many lao wai even more chinese than chinese.

but for sure becuase of the stereotype or somthing, most ppl think so (not only chinese).

[JoH]

My chinese teacher keeps complaining that young chinese people don't understand chinese culture anymore. ; )

I suppose it depends on what you mean by 'understanding chinese culture'. I'm not too sure what it would mean to say that someone 'understands english culture' either to be honest!

If you are discussing chinese history, medicine or traditional philosophies then there's no reason why a foreigner who has studied those fields shouldn't have as good an understanding of them as many chinese people. Or why a foreigner who has lived and worked in china for years shouldn't understand chinese business culture as well as a chinese person with similar experience. On the other hand, there are probably some aspects of culture that you do miss out on simply by not growing up in that country.

[geek_frappa]

chinese culture is nice, but old people teach rules.

they should instead teach the virtues and traditions.

old people are giving up on their youth.

old people don't know that they are also giving up on their society.

i am too young to lecture old people.

so i will be quiet now...

[nnt]

There seems to be a consensus among many of my Chinese friends that non-Chinese people will never understand Chinese culture

This is a very common international stereotype.

You can replace "Chinese" by any other country/culture word, and you'll hear it everywhere. And you'll know it's false everywhere.

[geek_frappa]

ya, that's why we have wars. and wars... and wars...

[Green Pea]

There seems to be a consensus among many of my Chinese friends that non-Chinese people will never understand Chinese culture. If i express a view that is different to the generally held view in China, i am often patronisingly told that i don't understand because i'm a foreigner.

It is really not that difficult. Let's use your experience to understand Chinese culture...

Rule 1: Maintain consensus.

Rule 2: If someone disagrees and thereby breaks consensus, then be patronising. If they continue to disagree, go to Rule 3. The fear of being patronised will keep Rule 1 in check.

Rule 3: If being patronising doesn't work, then ostracise. (You are a foreigner and can't understand us.) The fear of being ostracised will keep Rule 1 in check.

chinese culture is nice, but old people teach rules.

i am too young to lecture old people

This is another one:

Rule 1: Learn the rules.

Rule 2: If you are old, teach rules.

Rule 3: If you are young, get taught the rules.

That's about all you need to know.

You can replace "Chinese" by any other country/culture word, and you'll hear it everywhere. And you'll know it's false everywhere.

I agree. Just plop in any country, people, group, corporation, sports team, etc. into a little subroutine, and it usually works.

ya, that's why we have wars. and wars... and wars...

No kidding. Just simply because their subroutines have different names, colours on their flags, and believe their "culture" is special.

[39degN]

No kidding. Just simply because their subroutines have different names, colours on their flags, and believe their "culture" is special.

nobody is superman, everyone has his perspective, that's human being, ppl may not expect you standing on their side, but you have no right to bother other ppl's freedom.

sure ppl would not only think their culture is special, but also themselves are unique, one is not only the numerator of 6,000,000,000, he is respectable dust.

the color of flags is another story.

[Adam]

sure ppl would not only think their culture is special, but also themselves are unique, one is not only the numerator of 6,000,000,000, he is respectable dust.

huh?

[wushijiao]

I think most foreigners won't ever really understand Chinese culture and Chinese society. why?

1) Lack of language ability.

Example: Many so-called "zhong guo tongs" get mostof their info and contacts with Chinese people in English, which distorts things.

2) Chinese people do a great job at hiding the negative parts of Chinese culture and showing only the best parts to foreigners. Of course, on the flip side, this can be considered great hospitality. Sometimes I feel Chinese people treat laowais better than they treat themselves.

An (extreme) example: when one of my students commited suicide, the university would punish any Chinese student who told that to a foreigner.

3) Most laowais live in urban areas, and China is still a rural country.

4) Some foreigners are too lazy to learn about Chinese culture on a deep level.

There are thousands of examples of this.

With that said, I guess there are more and more DaShan-types around. This forum helps!

[Green Pea]

most foreigners won't ever really understand Chinese culture and Chinese society.

Doesn't seem to hard to me. Let's use your point #2 about your university .

Rule 1: Only say positive things.

Rule 2: Punish people who violate Rule 1.

Seems pretty clear to me.

4) Some foreigners are too lazy to learn about Chinese culture on a deep level

Wow...on a deep level. I am so impressed. Well, since you understand it, then explain it. I'm all ears. Be sure to remember Rule 2 above, and only tell us the positive things, okay?

[wushijiao]

Doesn't seem to hard to me. Let's use your point #2 about your university .

Rule 1: Only say positive things.

Rule 2: Punish people who violate Rule 1.

Seems pretty clear to me.

I laughed when I read that. Fairly true at times.

Anyway, I'll never claim to understand Chinese culture perfectly. To borrow a thought from Nicolas Kristof who wrote about China, as a foreigner you have to try to know all the things that you don't know, or can't possibly know. His example was how in the mid 1990's the CCP really got hardcore with the "One Child" policy, after a few years of going lax. The hardline policy clearly affected millions and millions of ordinary laobaixing, yet it went 100% unnoticed by the foreigners in Beijing- people who are paid to "China Watch".

I lived in Chile for a year, and it was much easier to understand Chilean society. You'd meet conservative pro-Pinocheters people from all sorts of walks of life who would blame the countries problems on the socialists/ atheists and their lack of morals and discipline...etc. Or you'd meet liberals who would blame the suffocating lack of freedom of expression in the arts, media, sexuality during the 70's and 80's for the countries problems....and you'd talk to people in the middle. You could also read books and newspapers written from thousands of points of view. Sooner or later, you could have a fairly "deep" understanding of the country.

Chinese people, of course, don't have that sort of artistic or political freedom. Or at least, the freedom that is developing is fairly new.

[holyman]

i would agree that most lao wai cant understand chinese culture, not the present society, not the language, but something deeper. they probably cant understand why chinese would spent extra time to save a few kuais by walking instead of taking a bus, or spitting in their homes and rub it with their shoes. they probably cant understand why people tend to jab them with their elbow, even if they are 3 feet apart the chinese walking oposite seems to unconciously raise his elbow. the lao wais know these can happen, but probably cant understand why.

[Quest]

holyman... 佩服佩服 抓紧了每一个机会。

[Tsunku]

I think whenever you approach a culture as an outsider, there will be some things which you might never comprehend, and other things you can understand better than those who are members of the culture themselves.

For example, I majored in Asian Studies, with a concentration in Modern China. Therefore, I studied a lot about the Mao era. Most young Chinese have been sheltered from this part of their history, and taught only the positive aspects. Unless their families were directly involved, in which case they have inherited the stories of their parents, they have an incredibly shallow understanding of the Mao years. As an outsider, I can deconstruct Chinese culture and Chinese society in a way that most Chinese do not have the ability to do. I can say, Chinese do things this way, and this is why they do this. I have objectivity (something which is especially lacking in China, as others have pointed out).

So, can I understand Chinese culture? I believe I can. But that doesn't mean I can adapt to it and adhere to it's standards. There are two different issues here. You can understand something, but still not agree with it. There are some things about Chinese culture which I will never ever be able to abide by personally. I can understand the mechanics of the culture, but since I was raised as an American, not a Chinese, the underlying basis of how I conduct my life is rooted in Western values. It is something much more fundemental than simply "understanding" Chinese culture. So when your friends say you don't understand Chinese culture, what they really mean is "you're not Chinese, so these rules don't apply to you." Whether you understand or not is ultimately irrelevant, because your disagreement is not based in misunderstanding, but in difference of perspective.

[holyman]

u are right, the problem is 'adapt to it'. as a foreign chinese i can easily understand their behavior, their thinking, what is the deeper meanings in their seemingly casual talks, but i cant adapt to it. yes i can explain to any laowai why chinese do this and not that, but i cant make them accept these traits. happy to see another laowai with similiar views.

and quest, u missed the point, its the deeper thing beyond hee hee hee...

[woodcutter]

China is a continental sized tradition, not an off-spring of Europe like Chile, so of course it is harder for Europeans to understand China than Chile. I seldom get the feeling that East Asians understand Europe all that well, but I never say "You East Asians will never understand us Europeans!". Perhaps only because I am a repressed, tactful European, rather than a frank (opposite of inscrutable!) Chinese person.

In fact we British don't understand "Europe" well. However, if someone darkly said that they couldn't understand us Europeans because they had been elbowed and seen spitting in Bosnia, I would also tend to think they would never understand anything, ever.......