Disenchant Posted June 19, 2004 at 11:56 PM Report Posted June 19, 2004 at 11:56 PM as a foreign chinese i can easily understand their behavior, their thinking, what is the deeper meanings in their seemingly casual talks, but i cant adapt to it. Hey buddy, I thought you said you weren't an ABC? Unless you just mean that you were born in China and then brought and raised in the US at a young age -- in terms of assimilation, equating to the same damn thing. Edit: Did you just purposefully label yourself a foreigner? Nationalities are easy to change in comparison to bloodline, tot. --- Foreigners don't understand Chinese culture because they don't possess the cultural memory. It's something that has to be indoctrinated at a young, impressionable age. It's not something that can deputized by academia or observation; it's much more subconscious.
holyman Posted June 20, 2004 at 12:15 AM Report Posted June 20, 2004 at 12:15 AM america isnt the only place for foreign chinese, i could be a bbc, nzbc, germanbc, jpbc, whatever.
roddy Posted June 20, 2004 at 02:04 AM Report Posted June 20, 2004 at 02:04 AM I think the most important part of this is the distinction between 'understanding' and 'assimilating'. If you study something enough, you can understand it - but that doesn't mean you could feel comfortable living as a part of a Chinese family or whatever - especially when something in Chinese culture conflicts with your own. I can understand why the Chinese people around me make the choices and decisions they do - but I would find it very difficult to do the same myself, or probably even very uncomfortable just to be in the position of having to make those choices under the same circumstances. I think it's true that foreigners would find it very difficult to completely be a part of Chinese culture - but that's true for any cross-cultural situation, particularly when the 'gap' is so large. Can be done of course, through long-term comittment or necessity. Difficult to 'understand' though? No more than anything else is difficult - you just need a bit of time and someone to explain it. A few times I've been told I don't 'understand' Chinese culture. Just ask them to explain it. It's not rocket science. Roddy
bjgodefr Posted June 20, 2004 at 08:15 AM Report Posted June 20, 2004 at 08:15 AM It’s not fair to say to someone who is doing an effort that he never can understand chinese culture (or way of thinking). Being a bit more constructive could come in handy here. Personally I ‘ve encountered this kind of thinking with some of my Chinese friends. Sometimes (yes I do NOT want to generalize) I think it wouldn’t hurt for Chinese to try to understand how non-Chinese people think & reason. And yes, this last sentence also goes for some non-Chinese people.
bhchao Posted June 20, 2004 at 09:30 AM Report Posted June 20, 2004 at 09:30 AM I think it's true that foreigners would find it very difficult to completely be a part of Chinese culture - but that's true for any cross-cultural situation, particularly when the 'gap' is so large. Can be done of course, through long-term comittment or necessity. I agree with Roddy. Recently I came across a book called Samurai William, which talks about the life of the Englishman William Adams in 17th century Japan. Adams was one tough man who endured many hardships on his voyage to Japan while others died. When his ship shipwrecked off the coast of Japan, he was one of only a handful to survive the journey. He and his crew were imprisoned by the orders of Tokugawa Ieyasu, who saw Adams as an interesting character and admired him for his resilience. Furthermore, Adams and the English were enemies of the Portuguese and Jesuits, which pleased Ieyasu even more. Adams started to learn the Japanese language and became Ieyasu's court interpreter for dealings with the Portuguese traders. It is amazing that Adams was able to become remarkably fluent in Japanese given that there were no dictionaries or translating material in his day. Adams stayed in Japan for 22 years for the remainder of his life. He wanted to return to England but the Shogun forbade him to leave the country. Adams gradually became "Japanese" and took the culture as his own. He treated his hosts with courtesy and respect, and he was very much respected by the Japanese. As time passed, Adams looked with disdain at the behavior of the Dutch and Portuguese traders, who acted like ruly, rowdy drunks. Ieyasu greatly appreciated Adams' service and rewarded him by giving him a large mansion in Edo. He was allowed to wear two samurai swords and Ieyasu granted him the privilege of marrying a samurai's daughter. Sorry, I'm straying off the subject here. But as Roddy mentioned, being completely a part of foreign culture can be done through sheer willpower and long-term commitment, as illustrated by Adams' example.
Green Pea Posted June 20, 2004 at 11:48 AM Report Posted June 20, 2004 at 11:48 AM Nice post Tsunku. Foreigners don't understand Chinese culture because they don't possess the cultural memory. It's something that has to be indoctrinated at a young, impressionable age. It's not something that can deputized by academia or observation; it's much more subconscious. If it's subconscious, then that implies Chinese don't understand it either?
Disenchant Posted June 21, 2004 at 03:27 AM Report Posted June 21, 2004 at 03:27 AM america isnt the only place for foreign chinese, i could be a bbc, nzbc, germanbc, jpbc, whatever. You're missing the point. You don't have to 继续摆出你那一套羞愧祖国的习惯. It's obnoxious as hell. Continously insinuating you have an inferiority complex is a tedious routine. --- If it's subconscious, then that implies Chinese don't understand it either? No, it implies most people (of any culture) don't take the time to psychoanalyze their culture or societal propensities, but exercise it anyway. Obviously, if you're a foreigner and you haven't internalized the Chinese culture, you can't really fully understand it, and will always view it from an external perspective, whether that is an objective perspective is really quite disputable as societal leanings of polar societies (i.e. the oriental and the occidental) are sometimes inherently contradictory. You can of course simulate empathy, but that's all it remains, as you still can't fully reconstruct the inclinations, upbringing, loyalties...there's an emotional context that is always missing. And you're always going to be carrying personal baggage of your own. --- But as Roddy mentioned, being completely a part of foreign culture can be done through sheer willpower and long-term commitment, as illustrated by Adams' example. lol, a English 'Dances with Wolves' guy.
bhchao Posted June 21, 2004 at 06:09 AM Report Posted June 21, 2004 at 06:09 AM You're missing the point. You don't have to 继续摆出你那一套羞愧祖国的习惯. It's obnoxious as hell. Continously insinuating you have an inferiority complex is a tedious routine. This is a very arrogant statement. No, it implies most people (of any culture) don't take the time to psychoanalyze their culture or societal propensities, but exercise it anyway. Obviously, if you're a foreigner and you haven't internalized the Chinese culture, you can't really fully understand it, and will always view it from an external perspective, whether that is an objective perspective is really quite disputable as societal leanings of polar societies (i.e. the oriental and the occidental) are sometimes inherently contradictory. You can of course simulate empathy, but that's all it remains, as you still can't fully reconstruct the inclinations, upbringing, loyalties...there's an emotional context that is always missing. And you're always going to be carrying personal baggage of your own. Is this paragraph even coherent? Not sure what you are getting at, but you seem to ramble without getting to the point. Foreigners don't understand Chinese culture because they don't possess the cultural memory. It's something that has to be indoctrinated at a young, impressionable age. It's not something that can deputized by academia or observation; it's much more subconscious. What? So Chinese DO have the cultural memory to understand other cultures?
Disenchant Posted June 21, 2004 at 06:17 AM Report Posted June 21, 2004 at 06:17 AM ... What direction are you trying to pull this? The topic of discussion is foreigners to Chinese culture -- not the other way around. And my point is, many who claim to objectively understand Chinese society are actually pretentious posers.
holyman Posted June 21, 2004 at 02:28 PM Report Posted June 21, 2004 at 02:28 PM You're missing the point. You don't have to 继续摆出你那一套羞愧祖国的习惯. It's obnoxious as hell. Continously insinuating you have an inferiority complex is a tedious routine. kekeke, what is ur point when u say 'Hey buddy, I thought you said you weren't an ABC?' ? whose 'motherland' was that u are talking about? do u think china is the motherland to every 'chinese'? If it's subconscious, then that implies Chinese don't understand it either? partially correct. chinese dont understand every part of it. they understand the part they are exposed to. example, in certain parts of china, or among certain groups of chinese, its ok to pick up your bowl when u eat. while in some other place, or among some other groups, its not polite to do so. group A probably cant explain what group B's rationale is. of course, most habits and customs are the same thruout china, but there are still some differences.
TSkillet Posted June 21, 2004 at 04:26 PM Report Posted June 21, 2004 at 04:26 PM There was an article in the LA Times today about DaShan - and it was sprinkled with a lot of quotes about how many Chinese think he's "more Chinese than I am" . . . I personally think the "foreigners can't understand Chinese culture" is a load of bunk - because the converse isn't true - my father easily adjusted to living in the US when he moved here - cross cultural adjustment takes time and effort, but it's not impossible. Here's the article - but registration is required. http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-dashan21jun21,1,2534327.story?coll=la-home-world
holyman Posted June 22, 2004 at 12:17 AM Report Posted June 22, 2004 at 12:17 AM yup, the diff is acceptance. my grandad moved out of china almost a century ago. althou he lived in my country for the next 40+yrs till he passed away, as a minority group compared to the locals, he never learned any other language and speaks only mandarin. he never learn to ride a bike or drive a car either. cos deep in his thinking, he has a superiority feeling about his own culture that prevents him from accepting anything new, lest understanding them. same thing for the foreigners nowadays. if they came from a more 'developed country', economically or 'politically', its not easy for them to accept the 'chinese point of view' on daily things, social behavior and 'esthetics'(what the chinese see as good or bad, lucky or unlucky etc etc), let alone understanding them. i've seen quite a number of british students in a chinese university, they are exchange students. they came to china for a yr, but they never mix around with chinese, only among their own group. and they speak english all the way, so their mandarin is pretty bad. every batch of them is more or less that way, for the last 4 yrs or so. i dont think people like them would ever understand chinese culture.
Green Pea Posted June 22, 2004 at 12:23 AM Report Posted June 22, 2004 at 12:23 AM No, it implies most people (of any culture) don't take the time to psychoanalyze their culture or societal propensities, but exercise it anyway. Obviously, if you're a foreigner and you haven't internalized the Chinese culture, you can't really fully understand it, and will always view it from an external perspective, whether that is an objective perspective is really quite disputable as societal leanings of polar societies (i.e. the oriental and the occidental) are sometimes inherently contradictory. You can of course simulate empathy, but that's all it remains, as you still can't fully reconstruct the inclinations, upbringing, loyalties...there's an emotional context that is always missing. And you're always going to be carrying personal baggage of your own. 1. I don't think it has anything to do with psychoanalysis, just analysis. 2. Internalise what? That's the issue. What is to be internalised? 3. Full recontruction is not necessary. Simple contruction will do. The emotional context can be included very easily. In other words, someone can learn to understand Chinese culture in a matter of weeks under the proper conditions. And my point is, many who claim to objectively understand Chinese society are actually pretentious posers. I would agree with this. The most pretentious are the Hong Kong, ABC, and returnee types who go around saying they understand Chinese culture. They are always selling something, usually guanxi which they don't have.
Quest Posted June 22, 2004 at 12:41 AM Report Posted June 22, 2004 at 12:41 AM I would agree with this. The most pretentious are the Hong Kong, ABC, and returnee types who go around saying they understand Chinese culture. They are always selling something, usually guanxi which they don't have.
wushijiao Posted June 22, 2004 at 02:21 AM Report Posted June 22, 2004 at 02:21 AM Dashan said this it the article provided by TSkillet: China is full of democratic missionaries pressing their cause," he said. "Would we Westerners want the Chinese telling us how to solve our social and political problems? While I'm part of Chinese society, I'm not Chinese. I'm only a guest here, a visitor." I agree with this thought 100%. This goes back to the idea that foreigners can live in China, understand China, and work in China with no problems. Yet, if you try to change China or Chinese culture, even on a very small scale (i.e. the workplace), you will meet resistance because you are a foreigner. I don't think you'd have this exact same problem going to Canada, the US...etc. In most Western countries, especially the New World countries, foreigners run businesses and are active in political, educational, and social life. I think there is a deeper seperation between "domestic" and "foreign" in China, not to say that it doesn't exisit universally. Of course, this is changing, I think.
Claw Posted June 22, 2004 at 03:24 AM Report Posted June 22, 2004 at 03:24 AM I don't think you'd have this exact same problem going to Canada, the US...etc. In most Western countries, especially the New World countries, foreigners run businesses and are active in political, educational, and social life. Well, just about everyone in the New World is a foreigner technically speaking. The indigenous people of the Americas make up a miniscule minority while everyone else can trace their ancestry back to immigrants. So it's not surprising that people feel that new immigrants should be given a say in domestic affairs, since their current successes resulted from their parents and grandparents who originally immigrated to the new land.
Claw Posted June 22, 2004 at 03:43 AM Report Posted June 22, 2004 at 03:43 AM ...and an additional corollary to my previous post: The Chinese people in general may not be as open to foreigners because of some level of (subconscious?) mistrust that may be a vestige of the colonial days where the Chinese government was powerless and foreigners ran the show.
wushijiao Posted June 22, 2004 at 09:18 AM Report Posted June 22, 2004 at 09:18 AM ...and an additional corollary to my previous post: The Chinese people in general may not be as open to foreigners because of some level of (subconscious?) mistrust that may be a vestige of the colonial days where the Chinese government was powerless and foreigners ran the show. That's a good point, and another reason why foreigners need to be sensitive when dealing with Chinese. I've seen some huge misunderstandings stem from what the lao wai sees as "Chinese people using "face" to obstruct efficiency" and Chinese people see as "the arrogant foreigner telling us what to do".
Disenchant Posted June 22, 2004 at 03:57 PM Report Posted June 22, 2004 at 03:57 PM do u think china is the motherland to every 'chinese'? Unless you can think of a new denomination for yourself that is equivalent to a new ethnicity, then very simply -- 'yes.' --- 2. Internalise what? That's the issue. What is to be internalised? Punctilio, weltanschauung -- all the characteristics imbedded with upbringing. With China's regional variations akin to the magnitude and variety of Europe, one must be a real arrogant sob to self-proclaim understanding of Chinese culture if not only on a super-watered down, superficial level. Full recontruction is not necessary. Simple contruction will do. The emotional context can be included very easily. In other words, someone can learn to understand Chinese culture in a matter of weeks under the proper conditions. lol...where can I find this ubermensch that can understand 1/5 of the world's culture in a matter of several weeks (and presumably all of the world's culture in several months)? Pipe dream.
roddy Posted June 22, 2004 at 04:17 PM Report Posted June 22, 2004 at 04:17 PM regional variations akin to the magnitude and variety of Europe If you want to believe that 'understanding Chinese culture' means you have to understand every little bit of every culture in China (and even Chinese communities abroad?) then congratulations, you've made your point, nobody ever will do that - Chinese people included. Similarly, you might say people from Cornwall don't understand British culture because they feel out of place in a Glasgow nightclub. Personally, I have smaller ambitions. Hope this means I'm not an arrogant sob. Roddy
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