How to use these words

[A life of study]

My teacher knows the most common meanings of the three following words, but apparently doesn't recognise the rarer meanings given in the Contemporary Chinese Dictionary. I am looking for sentences illustrating usage:

1) 联袂 The Wenlin dictionary has: get married (wr.); go, come, hand in hand; side by side, together, jointly; husbands of one's sister. But I can only find examples like 联袂而往. But I can't find any examples on the Internet or from speaking to friends of 联袂 actually meaning "get married".

• Is Wenlin even right in saying it has this meaning? Would 他们联袂了 be correct as a literary equivalent of 他们结婚了？
  
• What about husbands of one's sister? My teacher was confused about this word, and suggestively very tentatively that maybe you could say 孙中山和蒋介石有联袂关系, because they married two sisters. But he didn't seem sure, and that example would not mean husbands of one's sister.
  

2. 收敛: this word has many meanings and I am familiar with some of them, but what about "collect taxes and grain" as listed in the dictionary? I can't find an example of this and my teacher is perplexed too. Could you say 政府收敛税务稍微提高了？

3. 猖獗: this word also has many meanings and I am familiar with some of them, but "collapse and decline" is listed in the dictionary. My teacher is not familiar with this either. Could you say 罗马帝国猖獗了？

I think because of the characters, even apparently quite knowledgeable teachers don't seem to have a knowledge of their own Chinese language when it gets off frequently used words. I am not completely sure why. I wish the CCD had provided examples for every single word and every single separate usage listed in the book. Is there such a dictionary?

[HashiriKata]

Could you say:

他们联袂了

政府收敛税务稍微提高了

罗马帝国猖獗了

?

Although, as you also said, the words are specifically for written/ literary style, I can't see anything resembling written/ literary style in your examples, so I'm afraid to say they look very unlikely to me

[A life of study]

One of the examples was given to to me by the teacher - although I am querying whether it is correct.

These example sentences are probably all wrong - as I have seen no examples - so, what are the correct versions? That's the point of the question. The words DO have these additional meanings, because they are listed in the dictionary, but without examples. So it is not a question that these meanings don't exist, but rather how to use them.

Although I couldn't find examples on Google illustrating the definitions I am looking for, that may be because of the faulty construction I am searching with. It could be that once you tell what the right constructions are, that further examples will be easily found on Google.

[HashiriKata]

I'll find some examples for you but I don't normally go for the more obscure words/ meanings.

Wenlin, by the way, is not infalliable. Although I like it, I also often find mistakes in it.

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Edit: I've tried to look for the usage examples of the particular senses of the words you listed but as I suspected, I managed to find just one example for the word 猖獗 in the sense of "collapse/ decline":

智术浅短，逐用猖獗

(Intelectual inactivity led to the decline of the state)

Otherwise, the examples below are for the more regular uses/ senses of the words:

联袂:

联袂起舞

A、B联袂赴北京参加全国人民代表大会。

收敛:

骄傲应收敛。

他的行为要收敛收敛，别太放任了。

猖獗:

那一艘船上老鼠猖獗。

这个地区各种热带病猖獗。

最近，我在报纸上读到一篇关于虐待儿童现象变得猖獗的文章。

Edited August 27, 2008 at 09:25 PM by HashiriKata

[studentyoung]

1) 联袂 The Wenlin dictionary has: get married (wr.); go, come, hand in hand; side by side, together, jointly; husbands of one's sister. But I can only find examples like 联袂而往. But I can't find any examples on the Internet or from speaking to friends of 联袂 actually meaning "get married".

I also seldom find examples explain 联袂 means “get married” in daily life.

Is Wenlin even right in saying it has this meaning? Would 他们联袂了 be correct as a literary equivalent of 他们结婚了？

No. At least I don’t think so. Usually we take他们已结秦晋之好 as literary equivalent of 他们结婚了.

What about husbands of one's sister? My teacher was confused about this word, and suggestively very tentatively that maybe you could say 孙中山和蒋介石有联袂关系, because they married two sisters. But he didn't seem sure, and that example would not mean husbands of one's sister.

In 孙 and 蒋’s case, they are 连襟 not 连袂.

连襟

开放分类： 社会、民俗、称谓

lián jīn

在我国民间,人们把姐妹们的丈夫俗称为"一担挑",在西北地区民间又称"担子",而书面语言则雅称为"连襟".

http://baike.baidu.com/view/102474.htm

2. 收敛: this word has many meanings and I am familiar with some of them, but what about "collect taxes and grain" as listed in the dictionary? I can't find an example of this and my teacher is perplexed too. Could you say 政府收敛税务稍微提高了?

No, we don’t say政府收敛税务稍微提高了. In fact, the meaning of “collect taxes and grain” was in feudal society, when government and landowners would collect grains as their taxes, which was called 收敛谷租.

2.征收租税。《礼记•月令》：“﹝孟秋之月﹞命百官，始收敛。”《北史•崔浩传》：“列置守宰，收敛租谷。”《东周列国志》第二回：“ 襃珦 之子 洪德 ，偶因收敛，来到乡间。”

http://baike.baidu.com/view/513233.htm

3. 猖獗: this word also has many meanings and I am familiar with some of them, but "collapse and decline" is listed in the dictionary. My teacher is not familiar with this either. Could you say 罗马帝国猖獗了?

No, we couldn’t say 罗马帝国猖獗了 to express that Roman collapsed or declined in our daily life. The meaning of “collapse and decline” in the word 猖獗 is only used in ancient articles. In those cases, 猖獗 means the failure, decline and collapse of someone’s achievement, a government, or some political & military conditions, which are caused by rampant violence, or out-of-control chaos.

3.颠覆；失败。《三国志•蜀志•诸葛亮传》：“孤不度德量力，欲信大义於天下，而智术浅短，遂用猖蹶，至于今日。”《晋书•殷浩传》：“进军 河 洛 ，修復园陵。不虞之变，中路猖蹶，遂令为山之功崩於垂成，忠款之志於是而废。”《南齐书•刘善明传》：“公神武世出，虽当静以待之，因机奋发，功业自定。不可远去根本，自貽猖蹷。”

http://www.zdic.net/cd/ci/11/ZdicE7Zdic8CZdic962191.htm

I wish the CCD had provided examples for every single word and every single separate usage listed in the book. Is there such a dictionary?

How about this? -> http://www.zdic.net/

Cheers!

Edited August 28, 2008 at 04:33 AM by studentyoung

[A life of study]

Thank you both for your help! I suppose if my teacher didn't recognise the meanings, I should have just assigned those definitions to "meanings that are no longer in use". Student Young I will check out the dictionary. Hashiri Kata, what other errors in Wenlin have you found?

[HashiriKata]

I think 联袂 in the sense of "to get married", if it exists at all, may be archaic & out of use.

(And if this thread is typical of your interest, you may perhaps need to change your user-name into "Many lives of study" ).

what other errors in Wenlin have you found?

I don't keep records of the mistakes but they're mainly typos in the pinyin examples they give for their entries, such as fān for fāng or mǎn for mán. This kind of mistakes can be serious for beginning learners but they're not peculiar to Wenlin, so we just need to be aware of when what we're looking at doesn't seem to make sense. Edited August 28, 2008 at 09:25 AM by HashiriKata
typos!

[A life of study]

I found one today! 加冠, listed in Wenlin as jia1guan4 is, according to my teacher jia1guan1, because guan1 is a noun and guan4 is a verb, but 加冠 is verb+object. There are occasional things like this. I would contact Tom Bishop with any examples you have, as I do.

There are more examples where Wenlin is not wrong, but the nuance is not fully captured. 物色 is listed as "look for; seek out the color/appearance of an object", but there is no explanation that it is used when one person helps someone find something. If you look for something yourself, it is not 物色. The example listed (Bāng wǒ ∼ jǐ ge zhùshǒu. Help me find a few assistants) is correct, though.

[skylee]

If you look for something yourself, it is not 物色.

Are you sure?

[A life of study]

Skylee, you are a native speaker, so I defer to your comments on the subject. My teacher, a man of around 60 from Beijing, a member of the local provincial 政协 , says wuse cannot be used when you are finding something yourself. Is he wrong? Is this usage different in different parts of the country? Is this a word borrowed from Cantonese or southern usage?

[skylee]

I am kind of a sensitive person and don't like being labelled as a southerner.

It's good to know that you have a teacher from Beijing. Good luck.

[A life of study]

Did I offend you by asking whether the word wuse was borrowed from southern dialects? It wasn't intended to be offensive, and I am NOT saying Beijingers must always trump everyone else! In your Chinese, would use use wuse as an equivalent of zhao in most cases?

[chenpv]

Although I am not qualified to judge a "well known" dictionary, the meanings of '联袂' offered by wenlin indeed gives me a sense of misgiving at its qualification.

联袂 The Wenlin dictionary has: get married (wr.); go, come, hand in hand; side by side, together, jointly; husbands of one's sister.

The first meaning comes out of nowhere. I personally heard of '合衾，联衾 (under the same quilt)' denoting 'get married', never '联袂'. The second meaning is somewhat limited and inaccurate by confining the usage within 'go, come'. While the third meaning is pure drivel. As studentyoung had pointed out, the correct word should be '连襟' or ‘挑担’. （PS: Doesn't 'husbands of one's sister' imply polyandry?!）

[A life of study]

Chenpv, I am glad to get an educated native speaker's view on this. I think I will forget all about the rare meanings of this word. I am unlikely ever to bump into them!

[chenpv]

Chenpv, I am glad to get an educated native speaker's view on this.

Haha, please allow me to say that you might overstate your feeling, as it is not at all an education thing, but rather about passion of a life of study and the willingness to help to his/her capacity.

[A life of study]

Well, I can agree with a passion of a life of study!

Chenpv can you comment on 沏茶 ? The dictionary says qi1, but my teacher says qi4, or even qi4r.

[chenpv]

Well my idea is that, since you have already known that native speakers pronounce this character differently, you'd better possibly get familiar with all pronunciations so that you wouldn't get lost during live conversation in future.

Most local people in Xi'an say qi4cha2, and I don't find any reason to be distinct from them.

[HashiriKata]

Chenpv, I am glad to get an educated native speaker's view on this.

Now you're getting two more people offended!!!

Do you mean we're uneducated or do you mean we're simply unqualified foreigners?

()

[zhxlier]

联袂 certainly does not mean "to get married". It's wrong.

I recommend http://zdic.net/ again as a reliable online resources to look up characters and words. Otherwise, buy a copy of 辞海 or 辞源.

Not Chenpv here, but people indeed pronounce 沏茶 as either qi1cha2 or qi4cha2.

I don't use 物色 when the subject is the first person, partially because the word is not used in everyday speaking. But I never know it's wrong either. Maybe your teacher know better.

[A life of study]

Now you get me going and I have noticed more incorrect pronunciations in Wenlin.

挨斥儿[--兒] āichìr v.o. 〈coll.〉 be criticized/scolded/etc.

挨呲 āicī* v.o. 〈coll.〉 be scolded/criticized

These are surely the second-time ai and not the first tone???

Unrelated to the above, while investigating ai I found this (I am not sure if the following one should be ai1 or ai2)

挨不得 āibude r.v. to be touchy Nǐ zěnme zhème ∼? Why are you so touchy?

That sounds like a useful phrase that would be difficult to think of the correct translation if I hadn't stumbld on it!