Does it get easier to bargain/barter?

[Billy Jackson]

Lu is right, it is a game. It's a game for the buyers and the sellers and not getting angry is probably a really good tip. I read somewhere that when Chinese people do business it sometimes gets heated, but then every so often they will throw in a smile to let the other person know that it's not personal.

I guess haggling is like a battle of wits and you just have to keep your cool. Sometimes I wish everything was just a fixed, fair price so that I could go in and out of shops and buy things from markets without getting delayed by haggling for 5 or 10 minutes each time. It can be fun and satisfying sometimes to get something you really like for a really good price, but most times it's just frustrating and I think, "oh god, here we go again!"

I think it's an interesting subject though and I wonder why China is renowned for haggling. The word "haggling" slipped my mind when I wrote my first post, thanks JohnMck! I also wonder if all Chinese people are good at haggling because it's instilled in them from a very young age or whether they're like western people, some are good at it and some aren't?

[lilongyue]

People can react whatever they like to situations without reference to someone they don't know on the Internet.

This was said for the benefit of someone not familiar with Asian culture. Generally speaking, expressing anger is a cultural no-no in most Asian countries, but I seem to see more Chinese losing their temper more often than I did Thai or Koreans. However, that could be because I've spent much more time in China than I did Thailand or Korea.

[stephanhodges]

Another item I haven't seen yet.

For virtually every small shop vendor I've met, most of the day they are bored, very bored. If you come up and "entertain" them, they will take a liking to you and you will get a good price. I've had vendors ultimately give me a price lower than what I agreed to.

So, I always understand that I can contribute "value" to the bargaining because they are really interested in what I might say or try. So, it's good to come prepared with a couple stories, jokes, etc. Really, this works quite well, and you will get more conversation practice too!

Of course, this approach can take a little longer, but generally, 10 minutes is more than enough to get a good price and have a good time with them.

I sort of realized it was like this because every time I would stop to haggle a little (even if I wasn't actually going to buy), I could see every near by shop paying some attention, or trying to hear, etc. Several times, people would just leave their own booths and come over to listen.

It also helps (lower prices) if it's not as busy (not as many people), etc.

Perhaps this is just my imagination, but this approach has also allowed me to get over being too shy about bargaining.

[flameproof]

Supermarkets have prices tagged, the same as in western countries. No bargaining possible there.

Absolutely correct. But you can ask for a "better price" in a department store. They are more flexible when the ticket price gets higher.

Even here in Hong Kong you get 3-10% discount in the large electronics places like Fortress, Broadway, Gome etc. There is no harm trying, there is nothing to lose.

[A life of study]

You don't **have** to enjoy bargaining with someone who is trying to rip you off, especially where the degree of extortion is great. It is quite appropriate to get annoyed, practise your Chinese zanghua and leave without a purchase - the same goods can be found elsewhere. It is just PC grandstanding to say you **should** enjoy every aspect of Chinese culture. If I were to issue instructions to people on how to deal with haggling, **I** would say: don't be a plastic cardboard cutout person. React in line with your real feelings. Put away your Guardian handy pocket guide to PC behaviour and start living.

[lilongyue]

You don't **have** to enjoy bargaining with someone who is trying to rip you off, especially where the degree of extortion is great. It is quite appropriate to get annoyed, practise your Chinese zanghua and leave without a purchase - the same goods can be found elsewhere. It is just PC grandstanding to say you **should** enjoy every aspect of Chinese culture. If I were to issue instructions to people on how to deal with haggling, **I** would say: don't be a plastic cardboard cutout person. React in line with your real feelings. Put away your Guardian handy pocket guide to PC behaviour and start living.

And you don't **have** to ever learn anything about the culture of the country you are living in, but can just rampage around oblivious to local customs and make all of us foreigners look bad. Taking bargaining personally is at the top of the list of things you SHOULDN'T do when living in Asia. While it is true to some degree that as a foreigner you are more of a target for certain things while living in Asia, if you've made the choice to live here, then you've had to accept that that is true. If you really cannot accept the reality of life as a foreigner in Asia, then you're better off going back home. I'm sorry if that sounds harsh, but it's true. If you are interested in living long term in Asia, you cannot become incensed at someone attempting to overcharge you, especially not when the situation can be remedied by a variety of means.

[Luobot]

You don't **have** to enjoy bargaining with someone who is trying to rip you off, especially where the degree of extortion is great.

No, you don't. You can politely say "no thanks" and walk away.

Extortion "is a criminal offense, which occurs, when a person unlawfully obtains either money, property or services from a person, entity, or institution, through coercion" ... and "coercion is the practice of compelling a person or manipulating them to behave in an involuntary way (whether through action or inaction) by use of threats, intimidation or some other form of pressure or force. "

I don't know anyone who has experienced extortion when they go to buy a fake dvd, a shirt, some fruits and veggies, or anything that we're likely discussing in this thread.

Put away your Guardian handy pocket guide to PC behaviour and start living.

What kind of "living" do you have in mind?

[Senzhi]

I tend to agree with Lilyongyue. However, in business we should all also understand that the seller is trying to make money, and the customer is willing to spend it ... if it's reasonable. Making a customer angry/unhappy is a no go in business as it comes to a lose/lose situation. No matter how you look at it, the customer is always more powerful than the seller/vendor.

So yes, I need to adapt to local customs and cultures. But no, I will not accept that I'm not allowed to get angry if I feel I'm being treated in an unfavourable way. I'm the customer, I got the money and the seller wants a piece of it. It's up to them to get that piece. That's free market. That's competition.

I usually don't haggle. I give an honest price, which usually the vendor will counterprice. I then just walk away (and yes, sometimes angry). Most of the times the vendor/seller will quickly catch up and agree with the terms (if my quote was a fair price). It takes me only 2 minutes, and not the 10 minutes most people suffer with.

I understand many people consider it a game, and I can find it amusing how my local friends go into lengthy but friendly dicussions about price. For me, personally, it's a hassle ... and a waste of my (valuable) time. It makes me feel extremely uncomfortable.

[Luobot]

remember, it's a game, be nice, don't get angry.

This is the essence of successful bargaining. If you take this attitude, you can never lose. If you let your temper get in the way, you can never win.

Walking away is a powerful, time honored tactic. If it works, then success. If it doesn’t, then you go on to the next. There’s no purpose in going away angry. It doesn’t make the price any lower, save any time, or accomplish any other purpose that I know of.

A great thing about bargaining, when you’re a beginner and new to China, is that it gives you a chance to meet people and practice your Mandarin. And that's whether you buy something or not.

[blink]

The other side of free market competition is that the goal of the seller is to get the buyer to pay the highest price they're willing to pay. It's not just about what the buyer wants. How much do you really want the item?

I think it's interesting that many people don't look at it from the perspective that both sellers and buyers provide a service. I understand that it's frustrating to have to keep looking to find the product you want at the price you want, but it's a big market out there - you'll find it eventually or maybe even realize that the price you want is not the going market price.

I was also born in the west and only saw haggling in flea markets/antique markets when hanging out with my grandmother, but it is a undeniable part of living in Asia. I agree with a lot of the other posters here (lillongyue, lu, billy) - there's being understandably frustrated when learning how to live in a different country and then there's wrongly expecting every country to have the same system you grew up with.

[Senzhi]

you'll find it eventually or maybe even realize that the price you want is not the going market price.

Exactly.

And regarding to not being angry with haggling, I understand everybody's point of view: it's cultural.

However, what's not cultural is they will start haggling my Chinese friends at the price of 50 Yuan, while me, the foreigner, they will start at 100 Yuan for the same product.

That's when I get angry. It feels to me the same as saying: "You foreigner, you rich, you also stupid." That's no longer cultural ... full stop.

Luckily it's not always like that.

Edited September 8, 2008 at 04:58 PM by Senzhi
Forgot a letter.

[cui ruide]

In spite of what everyone's saying about not getting angry the advice I have heard (and experienced):

You only know you got a good deal when the seller is angry after the deal.

[Luobot]

In spite of what everyone's saying about not getting angry the advice I have heard (and experienced):

You only know you got a good deal when the seller is angry after the deal.

You're talking about the seller, and we're talking about the buyer. An angry buyer and an angry seller is just a brawl.

[Lu]

Lu, I don't like these "instructions". It's a game. Remember, don't get angry etc.

People can react whatever they like to situations without reference to someone they don't know on the Internet.

If you don't like the advice I gave the OP, nobody is forcing you to read it, let alone follow it.

However, what's not cultural is they will start haggling my Chinese friends at the price of 50 Yuan, while me, the foreigner, they will start at 100 Yuan for the same product.

I guess at that point I'd tell them Hey, you started at Y50 with them. Shows them you know exactly what they're doing, and puts you at an advantage, I think.

Of course one doesn't have to like every bit of Chinese culture when in China. But I think when it gets to the point that you're yelling at people for doing something that is completely normal for them but annoying to you (be it a waitress speaking English or a vendor charging more), perhaps it's time to readjust either your attitude or your location. How would you feel if some Taiwanese started yelling at you for blocking the escalator in the subway in your own country?

[Senzhi]

yelling

Nobody said anything about yelling.

Of course yelling is wrong, no matter where, what and how. But not everybody who's angry yells.

I guess at that point I'd tell them Hey, you started at Y50 with them. Shows them you know exactly what they're doing, and puts you at an advantage, I think.

I sense your point. However, personally, for me, it then is already too late: these people don't want to do 'business' with me. They want something else. And it's definitely not a 'win/win' situation but rather a 'win/lose' situation they want. I do not support such kind of 'business'.

I'll simply walk away. And no, I promise, I won't even waste my time nor my energy yelling.

Edited September 10, 2008 at 06:12 PM by Senzhi
Typing too quick and forgetting another letter.

[Lu]

You're right, there were mentions of 'practicing your zanghua' and 'getting angry' but not of actual yelling.

[eric.park]

Hi, friends!

I am a Chinese and nice to read what you are discussing. I do learn a lot from them, not only the tricks we can use in bargaining but english language.

guess what? I do not like bargaining, but I have to every time when selecting my clothes, electr. devices etc. I just consider it as a necessary step in order to get what you like, which you would not really understand because of the different cultures.

Many stores you are likely going to are usually not for us, we seldom enter them. Goods are very expensive and you are their "quarry" there My way is that, when I saw someone has something that I am looking for, I would ask him (if possible) where and how much he get it, and this could be one of my references, perhaps I will go directly to that place and ask about some details. Also internet could also be another important source for me in order to get familar with what you want, especially for computer, mp3, dvd and so on, and I did bargaining with those persons on internet. I enjoy this process and like to make friends through this, although the money I paid for seems always a little more than my friends did, but acceptable.

I hope you can enjoy bargaining and the time you spend in China. BTW, I am in the city Dalian, in case someone needs help, you are welcome.

[Luobot]

Eric.Park,

Thanks for your insights. It's interesting that you're able to get to the supplier. Even I never thought of going that far to get a better price, though I do something similar online when booking travel packages. Your English writing is quite good, by the way. Welcome to the forums and keep posting!

[eric.park]

Luobot,

thanks. this is an interesting place here.