Standard Mandarin (Mainland vs. Taiwan)

[Altair]

At various times, I have used materials adhering to Mainland standards and at other times to Taiwan standards. It took me quite a while to realize that there was a difference, and suffered somewhat. I am not referring here to mere matters of accent, but to differences in tones and character readings.

How did these differences arise? Was there perhaps a difference between Beijing standards and Nanjing standards?

Examples that come to mind are the pronunciations of the following characters: 期 (q1 vs. qi2), 携 (攜) (xie2 vs. xi1), 拥(擁) (yong1 vs. yong3) and 扎 (zha1 vs. zha2 or za1). Are the variants excepted everywhere, or only on their respective sides of the straits?

[Altair]

Is there any real logic as to when 尽(盡/儘) is pronounced in the third tone and when it is pronounced in the fourth tone? In other words, what, if anything explains why 尽力 is jin4 li5 and 尽可能 is jin3 ke3 neng2?

Similarly, do I need to distinguish between 往 in the third and fourth tones, or can a substitute one for the other indiscriminantly? All my dictionaries claim to distinguish two different meanings, but one grammar book says that the distinction is no longer necessary. Apparently 往北走 ("head north") would have "wang4" and 往左拐 ("turn left") would have "wang3."

Lastly, must I distinguish between 一场比赛 with "chang3" and 一场雨 with "chang2"? On another post about measure words (量词), I saw "chang3" listed for both usages.

[skylee]

I think the difference between the two pronunciations of 期 (q1 vs. qi2) etc is like that between the spellings "colour" and "color". It is comprehensible to chinese speakers and is not a great concern. Taiwan people use qi2, others use qi1, no big deal.

Is there any real logic as to when 尽(盡/儘) is pronounced in the third tone and when it is pronounced in the fourth tone?

儘 (尽 in simplified chinese) (jin3) - (1) to the greatest extent (2) as much as possible (3) always

盡 (尽 in simplified chinese) (jin4) - (1) exhaust, finish, use up (2) everything, all, complete

[BeijingSlacker]

Just so you know I am from Beijing, so whatever I say, it could be biased toward Beijing standard.

As far as I know, Beijing standard Mandarin is more wildly used overseas for educational purposes, and it also seems to be the trend in the future.

However, I don't know if simplified character system (Mainland) is better than the traditional one (Taiwan). I guess it would depend on your purposes of learning Chinese. I think tradition Chinese possesses more artistic value.

Also, personally, I think Taiwanese Chinese is fairly sissy, not only in pronunciation, also in wording. Most of their male pop singers and movie stars are somehow girlish. This is definitely a culture gap. I have been curious why it is so.

[Claw]

I have seen some dictionaries list 和 as han4 in addition to he2 for Taiwan speakers. Do Taiwan speakers always pronounce it as han4, or do they also use he2?

[Jive Turkey]

How did these differences arise? Was there perhaps a difference between Beijing standards and Nanjing standards?

These non-dialect influenced differences between Taiwan and Mainland Guoyu can be traced back to the Republican era. Taiwan still follows the standards set about 70 years ago. If you talk to older, educated Beijingers and others from the northeast, you will probably notice that their tones more closely follow what is considered standard in Taiwan.

If you look at any dictionaries printed in the early communist era, you will find that they retained the same tones on words like 企业qi4ye4, 时期shi2qi2, 古迹gu3ji1, 拥有yong3you3, 轻微qing1wei2, 寂寞ji2mo4 and 危险wei2xian3. The changes have been gradual in the mainland. The PRC government didn't just decide that they were going to change pronunciation to be different from the ROC. The reason editors and linguists changed the dictionaries is because they were trying to follow actual changes in spoken Putonghua. That's actually a fairly liberal policy. Some language policies in the PRC and other countries are quite reactionary and see dictionaries as things that set the standard rather than try to follow and represent the standard of real language. In Taiwan on the other hand, I think they haven't changed much of anything as far as pronunciation is concerned. This is probably because it would open a can of worms. If they start changing pronunciation standards in the dictionaries, then some linguists will insist that the dictionaries be changed to reflect the pronunciation of Taiwan Guoyu. They might insist that sh- be dropped for s- and so on. That's why there've been few or no changes in ROC dictionaries.

Some ignorant mainlanders may tell you that qi4ye4 or ji2mo4, etc, are not "biaozhun," but that is not the government's view. I have a teacher who is an examiner for the Putonghua Shuiping Ceshi, the exam all teachers and newsreaders have to take. He said that the assessment guidelines for the exam clearly state that examiners are to accept what is considered standard in Taiwan. They would mark you down for having a local accent, but they would not deduct marks for pronouncing words in a way that, after all, follows the "original" standard of Guoyu.

[shibo77]

The Turkey is right. Mainland dictionaries collect the changes and lists all of the different pronunciations, while Taiwan dictionaries are more formal and standard. If you want proper pronunciation from the beginnings of 白话运动Baihua Yundong "the Movement towards a Vernacular Standard" in China started early last century, then learn from a Taiwan dictionary.

Like 期 (q1 vs. qi2), 携 (攜) (xie2 vs. xi1), 拥(擁) (yong1 vs. yong3) and 扎 (zha1 vs. zha2 or za1).

I used tone contours here, scroll down to see description:

There are many more like 掳(擄)lu214; old reading: luo214; Taiwan reading: luo213

么(麽) me4, me1, me2; old reading: mo4, mo1 Taiwan reading: mo44, mo34, mo35.

These are accepted on both sides of the strait.

But there are always ignorant people like Turkey said, who would say that these are not "标准Biaozhun".

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Like skylee said,

儘 (尽 in simplified chinese) (jin3) - (1) to the greatest extent (2) as much as possible (3) always

盡 (尽 in simplified chinese) (jin4) - (1) exhaust, finish, use up (2) everything, all, complete

The simplification brought several characters, often of different meanings together into a single character, so the simplified character now has seeral pronunciations and several meanings. Supposedly, one should pronounce them according to whichever meaning, but I am afraid that within 10 or 20 years time, these will eventually merge into one. By then the simplification will be truely complete. Much like Qin Shihuang's simplification during the Qin dynasty, ending with «Shuowen Jiezi» dictionary of the Eastern Han dynasty.

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Chinese is low on phonemes, so lots of them will have different meanings with different pronunciations(initials, finals, tones).

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往wang3 verb. 1. to go toward; to depart; to be bound for.

2. formerly; past; bygone; gone.

往来wang3 lai2 -to go and return, personal contacts between people.

往返wang2 fan3 -to come and go, to arrive and depart.

往事wang3 shi4 -things that have come to pass.

往wang4 -towards as a VERB

A: 您的西藏之旅往返要多长时间?

B: 我的西藏之旅往返要三天三夜.

ENGLISH

A: How long does/did your trip (to and return) from Tibet take?

B: My trip (to and return) from Tibet takes/took three days and three nights.

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往wang4 adverb. indicating time or direction.

往左拐wang4 zuo2 guai3 -turn towards the left.

往北走wang4 bei2 zou3 -go towards the north.

往左wang4 zuo3 (used as an adverb, where there should be a verb following, but is left out, neverthelss implied)

往北wang4 bei3 (used as an adverb, where there should be a verb following, but is left out, nevertheless implied)

往wang4 -towards as an ADVERB

A: 您往哪开? Nin2 wang4 na3 kai1?

B: 往北. Wang4 bei3. the verb 开kai1 is implied "B: 往北开. Wang4 bei3 kai1."

ENGLISH

A: Where are you driving towards/to?

B: (I am driving) towards north.

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One might have noticed "往返wang2 fan3" when 往 as a verb, should be read as "wang3". This is a tone change/sandhi.

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Citation tones 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 are not enough to convey this, this is the universal tone contour system by Chao Yuanren used for all tonal languages.

In Beijing Mandarin, it is as follows:

1阴平 55

2阳平 35

3上声 214

4去声 51

5轻声

can have the tone pitch (H)igh 4 or (L)ow 1, with a variation (L)ow 2.

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The third tone 上声 214 behaves strangely and only exists as 214 when emphasised, repeated, classical pronunciation, followed by a fifth tone 轻声or when it is alone by itself.

In modern pronunciation it changes when attached with a 1, 2, 3, 4 tone syllable.

Citation Tone

3+1=partial3+1 214+55=21+55

3+2=partial3+2 214+35=21+35

3+4=partial3+4 214+51=21+51

*The tone contour of 21 is called "partial 3"

3+3=2+3 214+214=35+214

往返wang3 fan3, changes to 往返wang2 fan3

往返wang214 fan214 >> 往返wang35 fan214

With this regard, 一场比赛, 一场雨 is self-explanatory.

一yi1 场chang3 比bi3 赛sai4

场chang3 is a third tone, and it is followed by a third tone 比bi3.

Therefore "3+3=2+3 214+214=35+214".

场chang3 比bi3> 场chang2 比bi3.

Tone change of 一yi1, I described earlier

NO CHANGE

yi1 = yi1 (isolated) 一

yi1 + yi1 = yi1 yi1 (repeated) 一一

yi1(used as ordinal number) + any tone = yi1

一班*, 一时*, 一楼*, 一课*

CHANGE

yi1 + 1st tone = yi4 一井, 一千, 一般, 一班*

yi1 + 2nd tone = yi4 一石, 一头, 一层, 一棵, 一楼*

yi1 + 3rd tone = yi4 一百, 一国, 一时*

yi1 + 4th tone = yi2 一个, 一刻, 一客, 一半, 一课*

一yi1 场chang3 比bi3 赛sai4

一yi1 is followed by 场chang2 比bi3, a second tone 场chang2.

一yi1> 一yi4

In the end:

一yi4 场chang2 比bi3 赛sai4

一场比赛 yi51 chang35 bi214 sai51

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Same thing:

一场雨

一yi1 场chang3 雨yu3 > 一yi4 场chang2 雨yu3

一场雨 yi51 chang35 yu214

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Finally, this is what I know of the tones of Taipei Mandarin as opposed to that of Beijing Mandarin.

官:北京Beijing Mandarin

55 214 51 --

35 -- -- --

H 5 L 1/2

官:台北Taipei Mandarin

44 213 51/52 --

35 -- -- --

H -- L --

Level (first) tone is pronounced 44 in Taipei opposed to Beijing's 55.

Rising (third) tone is pronounced 51 or 52 as opposed to Beijing's 51.

Neutral tone pitch is often disregarded, and a colloquial version of classical pronunciation is used. Neutral tone pitch is difficult to grasp, so I guess it is the first to go.

As I don't get much spoken material from Taiwan here, please point out if there are any faults!

-Shibo

[skylee]

Now after 25 years of economic reformation, more and more pronunciation from the 20's and 30's are being recollected in dictionaries from the mainland as well.

Interesting. Could you give some examples, shibo? And why is the reform relevant?

[shibo77]

I don't know, maybe I'm wrong, but it was my impression. I collect Xinhua dictionaries. A 1971 edition, right in the middle of the Cultural Revolution, showed 治 as zhi4 only. I flip open the 1997 edition and it showed 治 as chi2 also. Same thing with 期 qi1 or ji1, but the 1997 ed. had qi2 also.

-Shibo

[BeijingSlacker]

Well, my grandpa definitely falls into the old well-educated Beijinger category, but there is definitely no resemblance between his accent and the Taiwanese accent, with the most obvious difference being he does not sound girlish to me in the way most Taiwanese men do.(no offense)

Are you fellas suggesting that in "the most standard Mandarin", which is spoken by Taiwanese, there is no difference between s/c/z and sh/ch/zh?

Get a Taiwanese folk to say 十四是十四，四十是四十。Are you suggesting in "the standard Mandarin", the whole sentence should just sound like "seeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee"?

I dont know linguistics nearly as much as you fellas. But to me, its counterintuitive that Beijingers, whose accent the Mandarin language is based on, do not speak Mandarin as standard as folks in Taiwan where people came from all over the place in China with their own dialects, many of which are not even understandable to mandarin speakers nor to each other, and where many people still speak Mandarin as their second language.

[Jive Turkey]

I dont know linguistics nearly as much as you fellas.

Yes, you've made that quite clear in your post.

But to me, its counterintuitive that Beijingers, whose accent the Mandarin language is based on, do not speak Mandarin as standard as folks in Taiwan

There's nothing counterintuitive about understanding what Shibo77 and I have written. Only basic reading skills are necessary to understand that what we are talking about and what you're talking about are two entirely different things.

These non-dialect influenced [/i']differences between Taiwan and Mainland Guoyu can be traced back to the Republican era.

In no dictionary, whether from the ROC or PRC, is the Taiwanese pronunciation of "shi" considered "biaozhun." What we are talking about, and which you seem so intent on ignoring just so you can have your typical Beijinger rant about how "non-standard" other people's Putonghua is, is that many of the differences in tones and some vowel and consonant sounds found between Taiwanese Guoyu and Mainland Putonghua have absolutely nothing to do with dialect or people not following established standards of pronunciation. Nobody has said that your grandfather or other older Beijingers should pronounce "shi" as "si" or "xie" as "say." It seems that you didn't read in any detail before going off on your prejudiced rant. Read again. Then go back and listen to your grandfather speak. I'd be willing to bet that he says some words with the same tones as Taiwanese people do. I know a few teachers here in HK who left Beijing duirng the cultural revolution. I've heard all of them say at least a few words in tones that are standard in ROC dictionaries. These are people who grew up in Beijing and have graduate degrees from Beida. They would laugh in your face if you told them that their pronunciation is wrong.

with the most obvious difference being he does not sound girlish to me in the way most Taiwanese men do.(no offense)

Oh yes' date=' I'm sure that your bigoted statement was intended to cause no offense at all. Do you think that the Beijing dialect is considered easy on the ears in Taiwan or southern China?

do not speak Mandarin as standard as folks in Taiwan where people came from all over the place in China with their own dialects, many of which are not even understandable to mandarin speakers nor to each other, and where many people still speak Mandarin as their second language.

Oh, me too. I just can't stand all those filthy, uneducated people who speak those dirty dialects.

[39degN]

The prevalent pronunciations in the Mainland are basically what Taiwanese loathe at, because it is the language of the peasant farmers. Like Mao Zedong, Zhou Enlai and the rest of the founders of the People's Republic. In this way, the pronunciation of the masses, though poor, prevailed. As it is with politics, it is reflected in dictionaries.

you are kidding.

no one among mao zedong, zhou enlai and rest of the founders of PRC has been able to speak STANDARD MANDARIN in their whole life. BTW, Kuomintang leaders either. as eveyone knows, they speak mandarin with serious accents.

[BeijingSlacker]

Jive Turkey wrote:

The prevalent pronunciations in the Mainland are basically what Taiwanese loathe at, because it is the language of the peasant farmers. Like Mao Zedong, Zhou Enlai and the rest of the founders of the People's Republic. In this way, the pronunciation of the masses, though poor, prevailed. As it is with politics, it is reflected in dictionaries.

Jive, may I ask you a question? Do you ever listened to any Beijing standard mandarin at all? or do you have any ideas how Mao Zedong and any of those old polical leaders speak? That statement of yours makes me feel that all your thoughts on Beijing Mandarin is purely built on imagination.

I am positive that anyone who has studied Chinese for more than one month would be able to tell the difference between Beijing standard Mandarin and Mao's thick accent since it is as big as the difference between Queen's English and some Indian village folk's accent. Being a native Beijinger, I,myself, sometimes have to use the context to guess what Mao was saying.

I am really curious how you can make all these highly assertive conclusions about differences between Mandarin accents when you dont even know what you are talking about.

Do you mind sharing with us your language background? I can't help being curious.

[Jive Turkey]

Jive Turkey wrote:

Quote:

The prevalent pronunciations in the Mainland are basically what Taiwanese loathe at' date=' because it is the language of the peasant farmers. Like Mao Zedong, Zhou Enlai and the rest of the founders of the People's Republic. In this way, the pronunciation of the masses, though poor, prevailed. As it is with politics, it is reflected in dictionaries.

[/quote']

What are you talking about? Can you read? I didn't write this passage that you are attributing to me. This was written by Shibo77.

Quote:

The prevalent pronunciations in the Mainland are basically what Taiwanese loathe at' date=' because it is the language of the peasant farmers. Like Mao Zedong, Zhou Enlai and the rest of the founders of the People's Republic. In this way, the pronunciation of the masses, though poor, prevailed. As it is with politics, it is reflected in dictionaries.

you are kidding.

no one among mao zedong, zhou enlai and rest of the founders of PRC has been able to speak STANDARD MANDARIN in their whole life. BTW, Kuomintang leaders either. as eveyone knows, they speak mandarin with serious accents.[/quote']

Shibo77 didn't say that the Mandarin of Mao or Zhou was "standard" Putonghua. He said it was PREVALENT. If you can't tell the difference between these two words, then no amount of explaining will help you.

I am really curious how you can make all these highly assertive conclusions about differences between Mandarin accents when you dont even know what you are talking about.

WTF? Have you bothered to read anything I've written above? Do you even understand what differences I'm talking about? If you want assertive conclusions' date=' compare any dicitonary printed in the PRC during the 1950s to ROC dictionaries printed any time from the 1920s until now. Then listen to any older, educated Beijinger speak. Listen for how they pronounce words like 企业，时期，古迹，拥有，危险，寂寞 or 轻微. You are likely to hear them pronounce these words and 60 to 70 other words according to the same pronunciation standards found in ROC dictionaries. This is as common as nails. You could walk into any linguistics department in Beijing and ask them if anyone has researched this "phenomenon." They will laugh and probably tell you that dozens of graduate theses have been written on this topic and that it is old news. The older folks in such departments will probably even pronounce the above words in the orginal standard way.

Do you ever listened to any Beijing standard mandarin at all?

What are you talking about? Do you mean to ask if I have ever listened to the Beijing dialect of Putonghua? Yes, I've heard plenty of it. Or do you mean to ask whether I've heard standard Putonghua, or "standard Mandarin" as you call it? Putonghua and the Beijing dialect are not the same. Putonghua/Guoyu are more or less based on the Beijing dialect, but they are clearly not the same. If you can't hear the differences, then compare the differences between CCTV news broadcasts with what is commonly heard on Beijing streets.

Do you mind sharing with us your language background?

I don't see how that is relevant to this discussion. Both Shibo77 and I have made strong, evidence based arguments. Are asking about language background and saying that we don't know what we're talking about the only responses you have?

[39degN]

Jive Turkey wrote:

Shibo77 didn't say that the Mandarin of Mao or Zhou was "standard" Putonghua. He said it was PREVALENT. If you can't tell the difference between these two words, then no amount of explaining will help you.

shibo77 wrote

The prevalent pronunciations in the Mainland are basically what Taiwanese loathe at, because it is the language of the peasant farmers. Like Mao Zedong, Zhou Enlai and the rest of the founders of the People's Republic. In this way, the pronunciation of the masses, though poor, prevailed. As it is with politics, it is reflected in dictionaries.

if you cant even understand (the 言外之意 of )those simple words, even God couldnt help you.

[roddy]

I am from Beijing, so whatever I say, it could be biased toward Beijing standard.

I know lots of people from Beijing who aren't biased towards any 'Beijing standard' - are there any other reasons you might be biased?

How did these differences arise? Was there perhaps a difference between Beijing standards and Nanjing standards?

Now there's an interesting question . . .

Roddy

[shibo77]

shibo77 wrote

Quote:

The prevalent pronunciations in the Mainland are basically what Taiwanese loathe at, because it is the language of the peasant farmers. Like Mao Zedong, Zhou Enlai and the rest of the founders of the People's Republic. In this way, the pronunciation of the masses, though poor, prevailed. As it is with politics, it is reflected in dictionaries.

Yes, I edited this out, sorry!

I was saying that Taiwan dictionaries are more close to the beginnings of 白话运动 than a mainland 新华字典 from 1971. However the masses pronounce words, that's their problem. Depending on your enviornment, your friends', teachers', and relatives' pronunciations. Whether to abide by the pronunciations of a dictionary or not. I believe most people, at least in Taiwan does not read from a dictionary and start to abide the pronunciations as canonical and abide by them in daily speech.

Standard is an abstract idea. It is forced upon, fixed. Beijing, Taipei, Wuhan... which is the standard? None. Only that the standard is fixed by the respective governments on the two sides of the Strait. Then comes a People's Republic Standard based upon the Beijing Mandarin dialect, with the authorities in Beijing printing out Xinhua dictionaries. Another standard in Taipei, by the authorities of the de facto government there, printing out whatever standard dictionaries they have. Based upon the standard Mandarin spoken around 1949 and with other influences in Taiwan after 1949, including influences from Min. I don't try to hide meanings in my words, especially with a foreign language. Whatever misunderstanding, it would be from my bad English skills.

I don't think it has much to do with Nanjing. The ROC Nationalist government changed capitals because the Japanese kept occupying them. Nanjing was just a temporary capital, as with Chongqing, and Taipei was supposed to be just another temporary capital as well. I don't think the pronunciation could have shifted in such a short time from Beijing (then Peiping) to Nanking.

-Shibo

[xin_ke_le]

you guys sure get worked up over such a frivolous topic. OOhhh Taiwan doesnt speak standard cause we prounounce sh/ch/zh as s/c/z. WHO cares??? Chinese languages have little standard at all to compare to.. There are so many variations and fang yan influences that to call one a standard for the rest would be stupid.

And then some try to make it a political argument? Yes our government is the one that is in charge of the language we learn, but also know that for many Chinese, the 'standard' is not always the first language.

And to say us Taiwanese guys tlak like girls is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard someone say. Sorry we aren't choppy and harsh sounding like Beijing people.

[Altair]

Thanks everyone for the responses.

These non-dialect influenced differences between Taiwan and Mainland Guoyu can be traced back to the Republican era. Taiwan still follows the standards set about 70 years ago. If you talk to older, educated Beijingers and others from the northeast, you will probably notice that their tones more closely follow what is considered standard in Taiwan.

The Turkey is right. Mainland dictionaries collect the changes and lists all of the different pronunciations, while Taiwan dictionaries are more formal and standard. If you want proper pronunciation from the beginnings of 白话运动Baihua Yundong "the Movement towards a Vernacular Standard" in China started early last century, then learn from a Taiwan dictionary.

This makes a lot of sense. One of my favorite dictionaries is Chinese Characters: A Genealogy and Dictionary by Rick Harbaugh. This dictionary adheres to a Taiwan Mandarin standard, but shows in the head entries where there is a divergence between Mainland and Taiwanese standards. Occasionally it also shows non-standard variants. One drawback of the dictionary is that it does not show these alternatives within entries or compounds. Many times I have been surprised by certain tones and have assumed my memory was faulty, only to realize later that it was a case of variant tones.

When I first became aware of the divergence, I thought it was due to some regional influence from Taiwan, but then I learned a tiny bit of Cantonese and was surprised that many of the variant Taiwan tones matched up better to the Cantonese ones (e.g., 期 qi2 and keih4) than the Beijing ones. This seemed to imply that these Taiwanese tones reflected Tang Dynasty tones better. They explanation above seems to account very well for this phenomenon.

Like skylee said,

儘 (尽 in simplified chinese) (jin3) - (1) to the greatest extent (2) as much as possible (3) always

盡 (尽 in simplified chinese) (jin4) - (1) exhaust, finish, use up (2) everything, all, complete

This explanation sounds great , but for a poor non-native speaker like me, it does not seem to match up; for instance, why does 尽底下 ("the very bottom") use jin4? This seems to reflect the first definition better than the second, does it not?

As I read all the explanations and consider some of the compounds in my dictionaries, I wonder if the distinction has to do with using 尽 as an adverb (jin3) and using 尽 as a verb (jin4). One dictionary gives both pronunciation for 尽量, but one distinguishes 尽量 (jin4 liang4) as meaning: "to the best of one's ability" or "as far as possible" and 尽量 (jin3 liang4) as meaning: "drink/eat to the full." Of course, Chinese verbs are often used as coverbs and thus have adverb-like properties. This might, however, explain why one can say jin3 liang4 (尽量), but only jin4 li4 (尽力).

As for 场, I think I gave poor examples and confused the issue. My question is not about tone sandhi, but rather about variant tones.

I have a book, whose English title is Chinese-English Dictionary of Polyphonic Characters. The Chinese title is 多音多义字汉英字典. This book lists 场 in both the second and third tones. Third-tone compounds include: 操场, 场合, and 磁场. Second-tone phrases/compounds include: 赶场 (go to the fair) and 打谷场 ("a threshing ground"). These distinctions seem fairly clear, although a little surprising.

In addition to these, my book distinguishes between two different uses of 场 as a measure word. Examples of the third-tone measure word are: 第三场 ("Scene 3") and 两场 球赛. An example of the second-tone measure word is: 一场大雨 ("a downpour").

I was very surprised see these distinctions, because I did not recall running across them before. My question is whether this information accurately reflects current usage?

[shibo77]

儘 (尽 in simplified chinese) (jin3) - (1) to the greatest extent (2) as much as possible (3) always

盡 (尽 in simplified chinese) (jin4) - (1) exhaust, finish, use up (2) everything, all, complete

尽底下 is listed as " jin3 di3 xia4", matches to skylee's>>

儘 (尽 in simplified chinese) (jin3) - (1) to the greatest extent

so in traditional characters: 儘底下

儘底下jin3 di3 xia4 changes into 儘底下jin2 di3 xia4

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Not sure about adverb-verb distinction....Both can mean a range of things, adverb, adjective, verb, noun.

Flipped...

尽量jin3 liang4 meaning to the best of one's ability (not necessarily full).

尽量jin4 liang4 adverb meaning do something (eat, drink..) to the full.

Of course, using traditional Chinese characters would save you the headache...

儘量jin3 liang4

盡量jin4 liang4

These pronunciations will probably merge into one in a few decades in the mainland.

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Sorry about the 场 explanation... as you can see, I like to overkill....

Right,

场chang2, a level open ground or yard; measure word, a period of, a spell of. (场院yard, 一场大雨aperiod of downpour)

场chang3, a big square where people gather; occasion, situation; scene, measure word, a scene; measure word, used to count recreational sports activities. (广场square,第一场"scene one",两场球赛two matches of a certain ballgame, probably asoccer)

I'm not sure why this distinction exists, the traditional character is the same for both pronunciations.

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Just an addition, I did not say Taiwan pronunciations are "the correct standard". Most Taiwanese have very different pronunciations from their dictionary. I said Taiwan dictionaries are more close to the old Baihua standard, which is pretty new, 1920's... At most, it will probably go back to Qing dynasty pronunciations... Taiwan dictionaries doesn't bother to include much of what is actually pronounced in Taiwan. I don't think Taiwanese lexicographers are very proud of the average Taiwanese's Mandarin abilities...

While in China, the mainstream character dictionary would be Xinhua Character Dictionary, and it is dynamic... one can see the changes in pronunciation from its 1925 edition to 1971 edition to 2003 edition. It brings in what is actually pronounced in the mainland. Of course, there is always the more canonical 辞海CiHai, both very standard on both sides of the strait. It is like comparing Oxford to Webster New World....

-Shibo