Why learning spoken Chinese as a foreigner is easy and hard

[Language Guy]

Has anyone seen Chinese translation clips of Star Wars on the internet?

Someone took the Mandarin subtitled version of a Star Wars movie and translated them BACK into English. It's really silly, but illustrates perfectly the "way of saying things" rule.

If anyone's interested, I'm sure they could Google what I'm talking about and find it.

[self-taught-mba]

When I learnt Chinese in Beijing in 1997 I found that a lot of the teaching materials were full of dialogues with topics which were bland and irrelevant to everyday life. Of course that was almost a decade ago so things will have changed.

LOL Not from what I've heard and see.

[Guest KuifjeenBobbie]

OK, I stand corrected

There must be a great resistance to change in schools teachning Chinese to foreigners. They surely must have been getting feedback from students unhappy with the teaching materials?... Or maybe they're just too used to teaching Chinese people?

Chinese speakers I think have similar problems with the European style of teaching foreign languages. In language classes (Russian, Polish) where I've been with Chinese speakers, they seem to have more problems than Europeans with tasks that require spontaniety, such as free discussion, and were not so good at listening comprehension. However, they had wide vocabularies and were good at grammar - maybe this is one of the strengths of their style of learning?

Have you all had similar experiences?

[Strawberries513]

well i personally think spoken Chinese is incredibly easy to speak. yes, it has its difficulties, but so do all languages. I really think spoken Chinese is the easiest to learn.

the only thing that is difficult is like someone said, the way they word things is ways ive never thought of

[andrewfz]

I have lived in Asia for 20 years now. I stayed in China 4 yrs and studied the language after work in the evenings. I can say that Chinese (manadarin) is very hard to take the first step...getting an intelligable sentence out that people understand. I remember it was months before I could get in a taxi and tell the guy where I wanted to go. I know the words in my head, I learned the writing, but somehow I could not make myself understood. Then ne day it just clicked. A great moment. After that it is much easier to make progress.

Some other languages are quite the opposite. Indonesian for example (where I live now) is quite easy to make the first step...its ABC writing, and the pronunciation is easy, no tones or unusual vowel sounds. Everyone understands even if I am talking baby language. But to master the complexities of the grammar and speak intelligently is VERY hard. SO many verb suffixes and prefixes verb changes according to situation, active, passive etc....

[Roee]

What is a "native Chinese speaker" exactly? AFAIK almost all the people on Mainland china are native speakers of their local-dialect and have learned Mandarin at a later stage in life (and it shows usually.) thus making it, perhaps, their second-language. The only place I've met actual native Mandarin speakers (well, 国语）was in Taipei, Taiwan -- people who heard Mandarin from age 0 and couldnt speak any dialect. Is there anything similar on the Mainland?

[RobAnt]

Surely the key to learning anything, and particularly a language, is to relax and have fun.

Don't consider learning Chinese to be a series of lessons, but simply a lot of fun. I love it when my Chinese friends laugh at me for even considering to learn Chinese - it just brings a smile to everyones face. And when they see that I'm progressing, they usually laugh even more. But they all, without exception, are very happy to help.

[xichg]

I don't know where you got the idea that only Taipei people speak Mandarin as native language. There are many cities in China where Mandarin is the predominate language and children learn to speak it from 'age 0'.

[Roee]

"I don't know where you got the idea that only Taipei people speak Mandarin as native language'."

You dont know, because I didnt say that -- this is what I'm asking, where can you see this on the Mainland and note the "native language" part? As an example, I'm sure the kids in my building study Mandarin from an early age (and it's oh so "prominent") however they tend to speak with their parents and Ayis in the local dialect which sounds far far more "natural" then their broken Mandarin. Anyhow, I'm very curious to learn of these locations on the Mainland -- let me know. Thanks.

[xichg]

How about Beijing and some other major cities in North and Northeastern China? You can also try place as remote as Xinjiang. Sure they may speak Mandarin with different local flavors, but it's Mandarin nonetheless, and the children there speak it as the first and only language from age 0. Few people speak Mandarin like CCTV announcers. My cousin who is from a second-tier city in He'nan province speaks Putonghua only, although she does understand He'nan hua. And I know so many people who speak Mandarin only and no other dialect.

[atitarev]

Yes, many Northerners claim to speak Mandarin as their mother tongue - especially in North-Eastern provinces Heilongjiang, Jilin, Liaoning, Hebei, and of course, Beijing and Tianjing, although they have regional variations. The variations are not great, though. Some other provinces have a variety of Mandarin (West or South Mandarin), which is more different from standard but is still Mandarin. Jin dialect is sometimes considered party of Mandarin.

In Taiwan, percentage-wise, Mandarin (its Taiwanese version - Guoyu) is more dominant as the first language compared to Mainland China in general.

Generally speaking, the local pronunciations of people from other Mandarin-speaking areas depart more and more from the standard as distance from Beijing increases. Some areas, such as Heilongjiang, have pronunciations that are not significantly different from the standard, though this is the exception rather than the rule. Cities very close to Beijing, such as Tianjin, Baoding, Shenyang, or Dalian, already have pronunciations that are markedly different. In general Mandarin can be divided into the following dialect areas:

* Beijing and environs, such as Chengde, Hebei. The basis of Standard Mandarin

* Northeastern, or that spoken in the northeast of China (or what the West knows as Manchuria), except the Liaodong Peninsula

* Ji-Lu, or that spoken in Hebei ("Ji") and Shandong ("Lu") provinces, except the Jiaodong Peninsula

* Jiao-liao, or that spoken in Jiaodong Peninsula and Liaodong Peninsula

* Zhongyuan ("central plain"), or that spoken in Henan province, the central parts of Shaanxi in the Yellow River valley, and southern Xinjiang

* Lan-Yin, or that spoken in Gansu province (with capital Lanzhou) and Ningxia autonomous region (with capital Yinchuan), as well as northern Xinjiang. The Dungan language, a Chinese-derived language spoken in Kyrgyzstan, also belongs to this category

* Southwestern, or that spoken in the provinces of Hubei, Sichuan, Guizhou, Yunnan, and the Mandarin-speaking areas of Guangxi

* Jiang-huai (or Xia-jiang), spoken in the parts of Jiangsu and Anhui on the north bank of the Yangtze, as well as some areas on the south bank, such as Nanjing, Jiangsu; Jiujiang, Jiangxi; etc.

In addition, Jin is sometimes categorized under Mandarin, as the Qin-jin subdivision. However, current practice tends to set it apart as a separate division on equal footing with Mandarin.

[Qcash3]

i think that if you start young it is much easier to learn Chinese, especially spoken Chinese. I started learning when I was ten, and eight years later while I am still not completely fluent I speak functionally. When you start young, and lay down a solid base for things like tones and pronounciation you won't have to think about them when learning new words and such, it will be natural. Also it helps if you are really dedicated to your studies, if I had paid more attention in Chinese class my Chinese would be miles better .

[wushijiao]

I think Green Pea was right in saying that the biggest obstacle to learning Chinese well is that it takes at least 5-7 years of hard studying. Since most people start sometime in college or in their early twenties, there are certainly opportunity cost issues for most people. “Should I keep studying here in China? Should I go back to my home country and focus on my career?”

But, I’ve often felt that this dilemma could be overcome if one started early. It’s interesting to see what Qcash3 wrote. I’m sure for someone in his situation, continuing studying in college at a fairly high level, and eventually studying abroad with an already high degree of fluency would make the learning process seem much easier.

In other words, I wonder to what degree is Chinese intrinsically hard, and to what degree is it hard because most people start learning it too late in life.

[yinyang]

In my opinion, a new language is like a jungle. And teacher's responsibility is to tell her/his students what kind of paths there are which can lead you out of the jungle.

I studied Mandarin 3,5 years in '90s and during those years I had 2 Chinese teachers, the first one was from Beijing Yuyan Wenhua Daxue and the second one from Beida. During those 3,5 years they never even mentioned that we should remember/learn by heart the tones. Now I'm just wondering why on earth didn't they do it?

In the beginning, the tones were practiced for some time, for a short time but since in the beginning so much new information coming in (sounds, grammar, characters etc.), the tones drowned in a busy and messy beginning.

I totally agree that teachers have not enough time to concentrate on the tones for a long time BUT I do think that teachers could repeatedly TELL their students for example like this (I borrow the thougths of wisdom by necroflux):

"Students, you must understand that a word is not a word unless you have the correct tone associated with it. Knowing that a knife is "dao" without a tone should feel just as incorrect to you as not knowing "dao" at all. So every time you learn a word, you must pay as much attention to it's tone as you do to it's pronunciation otherwise.

When speaking the language, you must be equally vigilant about being correct with tones, I would argue from day one. Anything less will result in bad habits which are VERY DIFFICULT TO REVERSE. I should reiterate that you don't have to be perfect; what's important is that your mindset is correct and that you are always listening to tones in your own speech and of course in every one else's. Any mistakes that you inevitably make at the beginning of your studies will become apparent as you progress and you can easily fix them at that time."

So, teachers should remind their students all the time on the importance of the tones. I think that teachers who don't do it, can't be regarded as good teachers. Since the tones are so important element of Chinese language, the tones should be emphasized much, much, much more than Chinese teachers do.

A good teacher is creative and innovative and, if necessary, s/he creates new ways of teaching if the old ways are not working good enough.

After this, it would be totally up to the students whether they practice the tones or not. But if the students haven't even been told how important the tones actually are, how could they understand that by themselves? Well, quite probably they will understand it but usually not very soon....

Another thing which I think Chinese teachers teaching abroad should emphasize is

tingxie practice. Tingxie practices could start already from the second class hour. First just Ni hao! etc stuff. And after the class has reached for example the lesson number 10, the tingxie practice could include words not only from the lesson 10 but also words from the lessons 1 -> 9. Tingxie practice would be really, really good practice for the students who study Chinese abroad.

[Long Zhiren]

Then one day it just clicked. A great moment.

Kind of funny how that works.

...like the day you wake up and realize that your dreams were all in the other language.

[ange9s]

"Yes, many Northerners claim to speak Mandarin as their mother tongue - especially in North-Eastern provinces Heilongjiang, Jilin, Liaoning, Hebei, and of course, Beijing and Tianjing, although they have regional variations. The variations are not great, though. Some other provinces have a variety of Mandarin (West or South Mandarin), which is more different from standard but is still Mandarin. Jin dialect is sometimes considered party of Mandarin.

In Taiwan, percentage-wise, Mandarin (its Taiwanese version - Guoyu) is more dominant as the first language compared to Mainland China in general."

Most northern Chinese would disagree that the difference in pronuciation from Taiwanese guoyu makes their Mandarin less pure, they might say the opposite. Additionally, many Beijing natives don't refer to their language as Mandarin, Putonghua or Guoyu, but Beijinghua, even though it's Mandarin. Many people in Taiwan also speak Taiwanese.

[Quest]

Additionally, many Beijing natives don't refer to their language as Mandarin, Putonghua or Guoyu, but Beijinghua.

I guess that's like how Guangzhou natives often refer to their language as Guangzhouhua/baihua instead of Guangdonghua.

[atitarev]

I guess that's like how Guangzhou natives often refer to their language as Guangzhouhua/baihua instead of Guangdonghua.

Quest, what's the difference between these entries, in Mandarin both have entries in my dictionary:

广东话[廣東話] Guǎngdōnghuà n. Cantonese speech/language

广州话[廣-話] Guǎngzhōuhuà n. Cantonese speech

Someone corrected me when I used one of them but I have no idea what the difference is. Which one is more common (correct?) by Mandarin speakers and which one by Cantonese speakers>

[Qcash3]

...like the day you wake up and realize that your dreams were all in the other language.

Weirdly enough, I've noticed that when I am drinking my Chinese gets much better. I think it is because you let your 'language inhibitions' go if you will, and you don't worry about how you might sound to native speakers. Indeed, one day when I was completely sauced I couldn't speak anything else but Chinese. Mysteries of the universe.....

[Lu]

Qcash: does it really get better, or just more fluent? With me, it's the latter, but the grammar etc tends to get a bit worse.