German student's

[Scoobyqueen]

strange death

[HerrPetersen]

I didn't know about his tragedy. I read the homepage his mom set up for him: http://www.bernhard-wilden.de/ you can switch to the english version by clicking the provided link.

[James Johnston]

This is from the website dedicated to Bernhard Wilden:

The overall picture is that the Chinese people support their government voluntary, are not forced to do so, and submit to the leadership. It is also the general feeling that there are "too many people" in China, and it can therefore be understood why they support the official one-child policy. ...the ordinary Chinese feel that they are well-represented by their government and they see patriotism as something positive and a desirable; a reflection of loyalty to the party. So generally, nobody feels suppressed here. The Communist system has poisoned their hearts and souls.

So to paraphrase, the Chinese are poor misguided fools who needed to be enlightened by Christianity.

As Bernhard says, the Chinese voluntarily support their government, they think patriotism is good, and they approve of family planning. However Berhard knows better: he knows there is a god; he thinks people should be loyal to the pope; and he knows contraception is evil.

Obviously I've no idea how Bernhard Wilden died, but I think if you show that kind of arrogance in any country you will make yourself deeply unpopular. The Communist Party of China clearly has no monopoly on brainwashing its population.

[fengyixiao]

If you can read chinese good,you can browser the "www.tianya.cn"，you will find how many people dislike Christianismus，also they dislike Islam.

Of course,you will find a lot of people who believe one religion. But compare the huge population of china,they are quite rare.

This is not due to The Communist Party. 孔子、王夫子、王符、范缜、韩愈，these famous acient chinese,they all criticize any "ghosts and gods, spirits" hardly. You can refer to this page:http://zhidao.baidu.com/question/28766124.html?fr=ala1

Any people who want to spread such religion in china will be opposed strongly,not only by the govermant,also by the ordinary people.

[leeyah]

I agree with previous posters. It is a scary story but it is nothing more than an isolated and very sad case of an enthusiastic young Westerner who no doubt fell victim to his own misunderstanding of China. I suspect the motive behind his love for the Chinese language was of a missionary zealot type rather than what inspires the rest of us. The clandestine biblical literature in his possession speaks for itself. Definitely not the same.

He had shown hostility towards the political system in private.

No wonder Christianity has always been misinterpreted by the Chinese and regarded with suspicion!

Please, don't get me wrong, I am not against any religion, but I think one should be aware of the culture shock thing at all times and very cautious in dealing with a culture which has grown in centuries of self-complacent isolation. That Christianity is welcomed to a restricted extent is best illustrated by the fact that modern Chinese nationalists are looking for traces of Chinese culture in everything including the Bible. They just love the idea that the character 船 can be dissembled as>>boat + 8 + mouths = the number of Noah's family members who boarded the Ark ... China is what it is. We are not supposed to come to China to change the existing order of things, don't you think? And when we cross the border we all do sign that piece of paper which says that we shall abide by the laws of PRC, don't we? No need to name it. We all know what it means. To draw a parallel: isn't communism still a taboo in the US?

You can pray before lunch and go to your church, no one will object to that. But you'd better keep it to yourself. The Chinese really don't like foreigners who show off or try to impose their minds or ideologies on them. A good illustration of this can be found even in the history of Chinese communism: Mao wouldn't let Russian comrades tell him what to do. He chose to do things in his own way.

Edited October 3, 2009 at 10:19 AM by leeyah
mixed up two "christian issue" threads :)

[James Johnston]

Of course,you will find a lot of people who believe one religion. But compare the huge population of china,they are quite rare.

Fengyixiao, This very much depends on how you define 'religion' and what it means to believe in religion. No doubt, the majority of Chinese people will say they don't have religious beliefs if you ask them the question directly. However, and this is especially true of the countryside, people do continue with rituals and religious practices that are concerned with spirits of ancestors and ghosts. Ideas about fengshui are also strong in many areas. This popular religion, which is different from both Taoism or Confucianism, is still very strong. Just go to any funeral in the countryside and you will see.

It's possible to argue that these are just traditional practices which continue even if they don't indicate any strong belief. But this argument assumes that inner-belief is more genuine than practice, whereas in China it is often the case that practice is stressed over belief, for instance you must appear to obey your parents even if you disagree with them.

[fengyixiao]

This very much depends on how you define 'religion' and what it means to believe in religion.

A religion is that there is a God who can control one's life totally. People should obey it absolutely.

I am from countryside. Everything can be magic in china. People may prey in front of everything. But people don't taken those spirits seriously. People pray for fortune、health、lucky，if such wish do not come into truth, people may abuse those spirits.

for instance you must appear to obey your parents even if you disagree with them.

You want mix culture and religion.

The instance you give is morality，culture, or guideline,made by people themselves,not by Gods,spirits.

If you think such things as religion,so law is religion?

As for 风水，it is a theory how to arrange your buildings,it has noting with religion.

Don't categorize everything to religion.

[James Johnston]

A religion is that there is a God who can control one's life totally.

I'm not sure that many religious people could accept this definition of religion. For instance, god is not central to Buddhism and most Christians believe in free will. Personally speaking, as an atheist with an academic interest in Chinese religious practices, I would define religion much more broadly, and yes, I would include much that you describe as 'culture' and 'morality'. Certainly in European societies, Christianity is closely tied up with morality and culture, even for atheists like me, and I would certainly say the same is true in China. Anyway, I'm not trying to force my definition on you, just expressing an opinion.

By the way, fengshui involves much more than finding a suitable place to put a building. For instance, the location of grave should be chosen to maximise the benefits of the qi (气) that flows through the land. The purpose of this is to bring benefits to the descendants of the buried person. For me this is certainly a religious issue, but again it's a matter of definition. I won't carry on as this thread is not actually about whether or not most Chinese people are or are not religious.

[milesaway]

Perhaps there is more to the story of this ordinary student whose death is mystically linked to Chinese police.

Operations and activities of underground Catholic Church are firmly squelched in China. I prepared statements for a Fuqing man who sought asylum in this country. He owned up he was never harassed by Chinese authorities as claimed, although a genuine member of Fujian underground Church. According to the pile of documentation he gave me, the principal target of religious persecution is priests, nuns and radical Christian evangelists. Obviously he is none of these. A priest of a local Church here provided distorted evidence. Which stated his life would be on a thread if forced to return as he is wanted over his significant involvement in illegal religious infiltration. With the Catholic Church encouraging illegal immigration, the Immigration Department’s lawful crack down measure are absurdly to no avail.

[HarryCallahan]

Bernhard, day of his death,

“I think that I am being watched, probably have been for many years, but this is much more intense now with a small army of agents all around me now.”

Is it possible he was suffering mental issues? Paranoid schizophrenia? I guess you'd expect symptoms would already have been noticed, but I wouldn't right it off.

I find it hard to believe the Chinese would chase a foreigner around just because he's Catholic.They do have quite open church services for christians. Or am I being naive there?

[anonymoose]

The other thing is, they usually just deport foreigners who cause trouble. I don't know anything about the case, but it seems strange.

Edited October 3, 2009 at 02:37 PM by anonymoose

[renzhe]

A religion is that there is a God who can control one's life totally. People should obey it absolutely.

That's a very limited definition of religion. It doesn't even cover all types of monotheistic religions.

Most people understand religion to be a codified system of belief about the supernatural.

[leeyah]

Is it possible he was suffering mental issues？

This is very close to what I meant by fell victim to his own misunderstanding of China.

Very often strong religious zeal in very young believers can take an unexpected turn, and lead to disorders of this type, especially in stressful circumstances. Intense culture shock may have shaken him up spiritually and so lead him on the verge of desperation, where he may have started to question his own beliefs, in which case I wouldn't exclude suicide, be he Catholic or not.

[gato]

You should read the account before speculating. There are some very suspicious circumstances about the supposed falling death.

http://www.xxx.zone-d.de/e11psb.html

The second film presented to my husband showed a great puddle of blood emanating from the body once it had fallen and yet the death certificate claimed that Bernhard died from acute traumatic hemorrhagic shock. According to the Chinese death certificate our son did not died of great blood lose as this film depicted. Bernhard's body showed absolutely no evidence of external injury according to the committed statement of the one who had identified him.

My son's clothes, the clothing he was wearing at the moment of his death, showed absolutely no signs of blood stains. They were clean! There could not have been any blood lose, let alone the great quantities of blood lost shown in the second video. How someone could have massive blood loss and have lain in this blood for hours and hours and yet his clothing has not one trace of blood anywhere?

[fengyixiao]

I'm not sure that many religious people could accept this definition of religion. For instance, god is not central to Buddhism and most Christians believe in free will. Personally speaking, as an atheist with an academic interest in Chinese religious practices, I would define religion much more broadly, and yes, I would include much that you describe as 'culture' and 'morality'. Certainly in European societies, Christianity is closely tied up with morality and culture, even for atheists like me, and I would certainly say the same is true in China. Anyway, I'm not trying to force my definition on you, just expressing an opinion.

By the way, fengshui involves much more than finding a suitable place to put a building. For instance, the location of grave should be chosen to maximise the benefits of the qi (气) that flows through the land. The purpose of this is to bring benefits to the descendants of the buried person. For me this is certainly a religious issue, but again it's a matter of definition. I won't carry on as this thread is not actually about whether or not most Chinese people are or are not religious.

Acoording your defination,everything can be religious. Why one eat food? He want live long,want health,want benefit,so eating food is religious.

Culture and morality are religious,so traffic lights are religious? reactionary gang is religious ? Even thieves have their culture(盗亦有道)，so stealing is religious ?

most Christians believe in free will

It's funny. If one believe free will,why there need Gods? You needn't to be a christian,just believe in yourself,believe in your free will.

Buddhism believe in free will

Budddhism frighten innocent people:"If you don't act acoording my words,you will fall into the hell. " If there isn't a hell to frighten the innocent people,fewer people will believe in him.

As for the 'culture' and 'morality',there isn't need a God. People have almost as same as DNA,they are connected to each other. Even a pig, has so many DNA as human beings. Human should love human,also should love a pig. So，morality is a science problem.

If you want love other people,don't involve a God,don't frighten people(if you don't believe in me ,you will fall into the hell). Science will work well.

Edited October 3, 2009 at 04:15 PM by fengyixiao

[renzhe]

I like sticking to widely-accepted definitions. Merriam-Webster defines religion as

1: b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural

(2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance

2 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices

According to the widely-accepted definition, everything is religious, if it involves a set of beliefs about the supernatural. There is nothing supernatural or institutionalised about eating food or traffic lights. So most people agree that they aren't religions. Other cultural things, like celebrating Christmas or eating fish on Friday, have originated in religion, so they have a religious component.

I have a feeling that you might be using a definition of an idea that comes from a different language, which doesn't correspond to the use of "religion" in the west.

[fengyixiao]

If religious include everything,so it is nothing.

It is not a defination.

It's everything,it's nothing.

[James Johnston]

Quite possibly everything could be religious, but that doesn't mean everything is religious. Traffic lights could be totems, but I agree it's not very likely.

Your example of food, on the other hand is very different. In addition to its obvious nutritional value, in every society and culture food and eating are filled with a great deal of symbolic meanings. Some of these meanings are certainly religious, but again this depends on your definition of religion. Taboos against eating certain foods are clearly important in many religions, both major and minority religions. In China, there are strong ideas about eating certain types of food at certain types of year because they have particular meanings, but again, you might consider that more cultural than religious.

And of course, if we are talking about food and religion we mustn't forget this.

[James Johnston]

If one's faith is more than self-delusion, it must inform her life in all the routine and ordinary events of life. Even at traffic lights.

From: http://www.heartlight.org/articles/200606/20060620_trafficlights.html

Couldn't resist...

[animal world]

And of course, if we are talking about food and religion we mustn't forget this.

Thanks for the good laugh.