Trouble Deciding.

[Ocker]

Hi everyone,

Im new to the forums but am just here for some sort of.. clarification i guess.

My question seems complicated to ask but im going to give it a go.

Iv recently decided to start learning a new language. Im having a hard time choosing between Chinese and Japanese but it seems a bit more complicated rather than "Just picking one." I dont want to compare the countries as I have an interest in both countries, one day id like to travel (Id like to travel to both regardless of which language i choose.) but of course if i chose to learn Chinese i think id like to spend more "travel time" In china than to other countries i may travel to.

Id like to learn Chinese but whenever i think "China" it makes me think of "America" China has developed so much over the years and looks like it wont be stopping anytime soon. I love cities but id say im more interested in the cultural aspect of both countries. I have cities in the country i live in so it wouldnt be anything "new." But it seems China is so quickly becoming filled up with cities from a "westerners" point of view that it just turning into another America and that ill end up having to go to a small town in the middle of nowhere to experience the Chinese culture. Where as with Japan it seems to have its cities everyone knows them theres no news of "rapid Expansion" and that if you go outside a city your bound to find Japanese culture without having to go to "A small town in the middle of nowhere." But it also seems that Japan is full of westerners trying to experience "japanese Culture." That it wont really feel like your experiencing anything at all.

I guess im just looking for some opinions on the culture in China and re-assurance thats its not diminishing from people that have travelled/lived there.

Sorry its kind of a broad question hope it makes sense.

Ocker.

[davidj]

I think that the reason that Japanese cities aren't expanding is simply that there is nowhere for them to expand into. There is basically only a small coastal strip that is suitable for building on.

Unless it has changed recently, the real cultural split in Japan is between company man (i.e. workers for large enterprises) and the rest (workers for small and medium enterprises).

[HashiriKata]

I think that the reason that Japanese cities aren't expanding is simply that there is nowhere for them to expand into. There is basically only a small coastal strip that is suitable for building on.

I don't think this is the case. We don't see much visible expansion in Western cities and this is not because they don't have land to expand into but because they have passed the stage of rapid expansion and are settled in a more steady rhythm of life. Japan was actually until the last couple of decades going through something very similar to what China is going through, and it was indeed "more American than American". So to me, the choice between China and Japan for Ocker is which situation would suit you better: if you want comfort and a more predictable, settled state of affairs, go for Japan. If you want adventure, variety and all the excitements of changes, go for China.

[yonglin]

Id like to learn Chinese but whenever i think "China" it makes me think of "America" China has developed so much over the years and looks like it wont be stopping anytime soon. I love cities but id say im more interested in the cultural aspect of both countries. I have cities in the country i live in so it wouldnt be anything "new." But it seems China is so quickly becoming filled up with cities from a "westerners" point of view that it just turning into another America and that ill end up having to go to a small town in the middle of nowhere to experience the Chinese culture. Where as with Japan it seems to have its cities everyone knows them theres no news of "rapid Expansion" and that if you go outside a city your bound to find Japanese culture without having to go to "A small town in the middle of nowhere."

I must say I have a really hard time understanding this paragraph. As I see it, your point is that:

1. Both Chinese and Japanese metropolitan areas are Westernized, so you can't really experience "the Chinese/Japanese culture" in metropolitan areas.

2. Both Chinese and Japanese "towns in the middle of nowhere" are genuine in the since that you get the opportunity to experience "the Chinese/Japanese culture".

3. In Japan, there are towns(?) which are not big cities yet not in the middle of nowhere where one can experience Japanese culture. However, in China, these towns do not exist.

I cannot really make sense of this claim. Why would it not be possible to experience Chinese culture in a big city? Can you only experience Chinese culture in town in the middle of nowhere?! It seems to me that you're confusing "Chinese culture" with poverty. Chinese city dwellers have their own cultural expressions, which might differ from those in rural areas, but I fail to see how this qualifies as Chinese culture. Can you only experience American culture in areas where people maintain an arachaic rural lifestyle?

Anyway, if you're looking for poverty, there are a zillion of medium-sized towns in China where this might be possible. Out of the places I've visited in China, Kaifeng in Henan comes to mind as extremely Chinese and relatively undeveloped (people ride bicycles, the road is muddy, etc.).

Oh... and keep in mind that some people claim that the best places to experience Chinese culture is in Hong Kong or Taiwan, since "the Chinese culture" here wasn't tainted by cultural revolutions or great leaps forward.

[renzhe]

It's a bit of a strange question.

I can assure you that China is still China and nothing like America, really. Even Shanghai and Hong Kong, with their ultra-modern high-rises and international businessmen still don't feel anything like America. China is still China, and a few Starbucks here and there cannot change that.

Also, rest assured that:

- there are parks, palaces and museums in every huge city that will have plenty of culture and history

- there are villages outside of the big cities and they aren't going anywhere

- the culture doesn't disappear or become "American" just because some buildings get built. The Chinese people in the modern cities are still Chinese, they speak Chinese, play Go and Chinese chess, drink green tea, etc.

[renzhe]

Oh... and keep in mind that some people claim that the best places to experience Chinese culture is in Hong Kong or Taiwan, since "the Chinese culture" here wasn't tainted by cultural revolutions or great leaps forward.

Other people will claim that Beijing is the better place than either because it wasn't tainted by centuries of Japanese or English imperialism.

[Lu]

If you can, I'd recommend making an Asia tour and go see at least China and Japan. I think that will make it a lot easier to make up your mind.

China will never, ever turn into the US. The makeup is just completely different. Culture is in language, passtimes, ways people interact, work attitude, holidays, religion, food, drink, movies, other art, clothes, andsoon andsoforth. You will find all of this and much more in cities. If you would be dropped in a random big city in either China or the US, you would know in which country you were even before opening your eyes.

From your post it looks like you're American and have never left your country. (No offense intended.) Do travel a bit, the world is very big and most of it more different than you can imagine.

[Scoobyqueen]

I personally woud choose the language that you think sound the prettier.

[imron]

From your post it looks like you're American and have never left your country.

Going by the username I would guess Australian. Either way, the China and Japan you imagine in your mind don't exist. I agree you should try visiting them both to see which you prefer.

[simonlaing]

I would like to put in a vote for China as I think Japan has quite a few weirdos (no offense)

Chinese culture is often around entrepreneurialism and success making your own store or restaurant. People like to socialize over dinner and tea.

Japan this happens too but there are many more rules , obssessions with Anime (waittresses and theme restaurants and motels). Things like used women's underwear in vending machines occur. Japan is much cleaner and the people often live outside the cities and come to work in crowded trains.

In China, many people live in the city in 40 story skyscraper apartments (think Manhatten) at least in the big cities.

In both places crime is generally low and people feel safe. The Japanese Yen is worth more than the Chinese Yuan which can be good if you're a teacher and bad if you're a student in Japan. Chinese cost of living is generally much less than Japan.

China's size is much bigger than japan with cheap train tickets inviting you to explore the big country. Both places have weird food dishes, but Japan seems to have more raw fish dishes.

I prefer the taste of authentic Chinese food to Japanese food and Chinese food that you get in the west (usually Guangdong style).

Good luck,

Simon

[lilongyue]

It seems to be a rather common sentiment among foreigners new to Asia that what they truly want is to experience the "real" Asia. What that usually seems to entail is finding the most undeveloped part of the country, which in their mind seems to be synonymous with being the least influenced by Western culture. While there is some truth to that statement, what the OP should be asking his/herself is whether or not they can handle living in such an environment. Judging by the tone of the original post, I'd guess the Ocker doesn't have much experience living in Asia, if s/he has ever been here. While there is abundant information on the net nowadays regarding living in undeveloped, rural Asia, here's a few points you should ask yourself to see if you could truly handle life in "real" China:

1) Do you speak Chinese now? Even in big cities there isn't much English (compared to other countries, like India), and even less in any place outside of a big city. Public signs often don't have English, not even for the toilet. When you can't read any Chinese, can't ask someone where the nearest toilet is, and wouldn't understand the answer even if you could ask, what are you going to do? Take this problem and apply it to anything you want/need to do, just to take care of daily tasks, and you'll begin to get an idea of what life is like in "real" China. I'm actually speaking from experience. The first place I lived in China was a small town, and I didn't speak any Chinese when I went there. I couldn't even order food in a restaurant. I couldn't ride the bus anywhere because I didn't know the names of any place, and couldn't take a taxi for the same reason. I couldn't talk to anyone, since no one spoke English, and if I did happen to run into someone who knew some English, in their eyes I was a strange foreigner, and there was little to no chance of making friends with them. But even if I had been Chinese, I wouldn't have been able to just make friends with random people I met on the street or in shops. Here's a bit of Chinese culture for you: Chinese are very slow in trusting people, and relationships are built up slowly. So, if you want to run off into "real" China, are you prepared for isolation, and being rendered a deaf and mute by your inability to communicate in Chinese? Keep in mind that people don't just "pick up" Chinese. The immersion method of learning Chinese, if you don't already have solid foundation in the language, doesn't work for most people. Related to learning Chinese, all of the universities or private schools that teach Chinese to foreigners are located in big cities.

2) Can you give up every eating/drinking every kind of food you were raised on, and live on a 100% Chinese diet? This is a serious question, as almost every foreigner I know can't do this. If you can't speak or read Chinese, and so can't eat in a restaurant, can you cook?

3) Have you ever washed clothes by hand? Even in big cities, it's still quite common for Chinese to wash clothes by hand.

4) Can you live without AC and heating? What about hot running water? Many Chinese still live without these things, although this is becoming less and less common. But it is still common for apartments not to come with their own ACs and hot water units. But, related to point #1, how will you find any of these things (apartment, AC, etc) if you can't speak Chinese?

I've never been to Japan, but it's no secret that it has first-world status. That fact in and of itself would make a tremendous difference in your lifestyle, but this may not be obvious to you if you've never been to a developing country. If you've spent all your time in first-world, developed Western countries, you probably haven't even begun to understand how many things you take for granted (cleanliness, sanitation, conveniences like frozen food). All of the language related problems I mentioned having in China would probably apply to Japan as well (meaning life outside of big cities). There will be plenty of culture shock to deal with in either place, but dealing with culture shock on top of having your sense of cleanliness and what is sanitary affronted in major ways is often times too much for people. China can be a very dirty place. I spent my first year in Asia in India, so I had already gotten used to the filth one can encounter in Asia, but for someone new here, it can be very shocking.

You may also want to ask yourself what does "Chinese culture" mean to you? Are you expecting to sit around and admire calligraphy and recite Chinese classical poetry all day? Or discuss fengshui and Daoism amid bamboo forests? A lot of Westerners have serious misconceptions about modern Chinese life, and the way it relates to elements of classical Chinese culture. Most Chinese don't believe in any religion, so you'll have to look hard to find Chinese into Buddhism or Daoism. Many Chinese don't know anything about fengshui either. Many Chinese study classical poems while in school, but most young Chinese men and women are much more interested in pop music than Tao Yuanming. Chinese are like people of any country, meaning most aren't really into history. If you're really into classical Chinese history, and want to talk about the Tang dynasty with people, don't be surprised if you find that most people don't know a whole lot about it, and would rather talk about what's happening on the latest TV sitcom. That's not to say that you can't find Chinese interested in all the things I just mentioned, but if you don't speak Chinese, you probably aren't going to be able to find them, and if you did find them then how will you talk to them? Even if you had a translator, they probably won't know the vocabulary (in English or maybe even in Chinese), to allow you to have conversation about these topics. Most modern Chinese are focused on making money so they can get married, buy a house and a car and start a family. That is central to their lives, not listening to guqin recitals. The same will be true for most modern Japanese. Often times, what we Westerners think of as typifying Asia are only small elements of the culture that came from classical times, and these things don't play big parts in the lives of modern Asian people.

If you want to study Chinese, and like Chinese culture, but want more convenience, cleanliness and access to modern life, then you can go to Taiwan. Their standard of living in much higher than the Mainland, and it might be a good way to ease into Asia. I personally like Taiwan a lot, but them again I've spent 6 years in developing Asian countries, so I'm ready for some more convenience and cleanliness. I'm already well into my Chinese studies, and it doesn't make sense for me to run off to Japan now. You can always study Mandarin in Taiwan, and if you decide you want to come to the Mainland, you can. It's probably best to choose one language and stick with it, so think carefully about which one you are going to study.

Good luck!

[Ocker]

Thanks for the replies everyone.

Really appreciate it.