Living Permit duration shorter than Visa?

[Entropy_Rising]

Hi folks,

So I get an "F" Visa to study for one semester here in China. Written clearly on it is "duration of each stay - 180 days after entry." This all totally makes sense to me, as I'm studying a semester and so I figure I'll be given half a year -this makes even more sense to me since in 2005 I studied abroad in China and at that time was also given a 180 day F visa.

Then there's this question of a temporary living permit - 居留许可. I taught English for a year last year. I received a Z visa for this - on it, it says the validity is 000 days after entry. That confused me at first (this was my first work visa), but it all made sense after I arrived on scene and received this temporary living permit which had a clear duration on it. Aha! Says I. In this situation the visa is more for entering the country and the temporary residence permit sort of kicks in once you're there - if you want to know when you have to gtfo, then look at the residence permit.

So here's my situation - I have an F visa with a clear validity on it. I've had a personal experience 3 years ago with the samer visa, though of course rules change over time. However, I'm told I need to get a temporary living permit. I'm a little thrown off, because I didn't have to get one for my old F visa and when I did get a living permit for the Z visa, the Z visa didn't have an expiration date (so that it would not conflict with the living permit). Furthermore, before I came it seemed very clear on the school's website that students staying more than a semester are the ones required to getting a living permit. But in China you roll with things, right?

But here's where the poop hits the fan - I'm going Monday to get my residence permit and it expires before my visa expires. This is utter chaos. Having been deceived by 1) my previous F-visa experience and 2) the school's own website and 3) no indication on the part of the staff whatsoever that my constantly telling them I was leaving in February was completely wrong, I made all my plans based on the visa's "180 days after entry" - the biggest thorns being my apartment contract and my plane ticket. However, the administrators are now telling me that "according to law" I'm only permitted to apply for a residence permit that ends at the end of January. Thus come Monday I'll have a Residence Permit that expires at the end of January and a Visa that expires 180 days after entry - one month after the Residence Permit goes kaput.

So I'm not sure what the best course of action is. I'm still not even sure why I have to get a residence permit - not sure why since this is the case the F visa did not have a 000 days after entry mark as to not conflict with the residence permit, which it now is. Has anyone else been in this situation? Can anyone comment on which document has more "authority?" Can I just stay on in my apartment after January and when I return home point to the visa which has a 180 day validity? Should I/Can I apply for a one month tourist visa so I can live out the last month? Or am I just screwed, and have to leave then, wasting one month's worth of rent and whatever it costs to change the ticket?

Thanks in advance.

[Senzhi]

Can anyone comment on which document has more "authority?"

The last visa in your passport has the most "authority", as it cancels all previous visas.

Can I just stay on in my apartment after January and when I return home point to the visa which has a 180 day validity?

Absolutely not: since your residence permit will be the last visa, it'll cancel your F-visa.

I honestly wish I could give you more positive news.

[Entropy_Rising]

What I'm interested in here is the relationships between residence permits and visas.

Some visas require residence permits. Some do not.

I've been to China 3 times. The first time, I had an F visa with a 180 day validity. It did not require a residence permit. I lived in China for those 180 days, and left.

The second time, I had a Z visa with a 000 day validity . It did require a residence permit - the validity on the residence permit represented the validity of my stay in China. Thus the whole "residence permit" system is designed to work in tandem with a specific visa you use to get into china. I lived in China for a year, according to that residence permit, and left.

The third time, I have an F visa with a 180 day validity. My school is asking me to get a residence permit with an expiration date earlier than that of the visa.

So this is the thing. Every document I have seen so far, including the one provided by the institute I am going to school at, seems to indicate that F (访问) visas do not require a residence permit, as they are short term and thus have their duration written onto them. Tourist visas are this way as well - they are short term, contain their own dates of validity, and do not require a residence permit.

An X (学习) visa and a Z (职业) visa are long term visas. These visas "duration" sections are left blank or have "000" written onto them. When they are delivered to people by Untied States embassies or consulates, they are usually delivered with a stapled warning urging the passport holder to get a residence permit within 30 days of entering the country because it is precisely the residence permit that works in tandem with and with these types of visas and grants them a duration of validity (both of my F visas - 3 years ago and the current one - did not come with a stapled warning to get a residence permit). This dual distinction, one between visas that have their own duration and do not require a residence permit, and visas that do not have their own duration and do require a residence permit, is also backed up by my own personal experience of having had before an F visa and a Z visa.

So basically, does an F visa require a residence permit, or not? I've gotten a hefty amount of evidence that says it does not. I suspect that my school is being quite incompetent on the matter. I'm studying at a small university in Xinjiang, not BJU, not somewhere in Shanghai, and the staff has on repeated occasions admitted with a flustered 不好意思 that they have no idea what they're doing. Thus I am suspecting that they are requiring me to get a residence permit where one is not necessary. It's also a little preposterous that they procure for me a 6 month visa, and personally help me find a landlord by asking local renters if I could rent an apartment for "6 months," then later telling me, "oops, the number on your visa is actually meaningless and you're going to have to change your ticket and waste a month's worth of rent because you have a get a 'residence permit' that expires before its partner visa does."

However, part of my evidence is anecdotal (personal experience) and the other part is based on documents scattered throughout the web on Chinese websites and consulates usually with timestamps from 2006 or before, and so I'm completely open to the possibility that the law has changed (though I have unearthed no evidence whatsoever that it has). So I come here wondering if anyone on this board is here on an F visa or is more familiar with Chinese regulations or more familiar with using Baidu then I am.

[Senzhi]

As far as I know, and I haven't been informed of any changes neither, your information is correct: only D, J-1, X, and Z visas require to be changed into a residence permit within 30 days of entry.

All other visas are valid for their duration mentioned.

I suspect that my school is being quite incompetent on the matter.

I fully agree.

I suggest getting in touch with the Exit and Entry Management Section of your local PSB, as well as the Ministry of Foreign Affairs in China. The latter is not always easy to contact. However, your consulate/embassy could help you with this.

[Entropy_Rising]

Thanks Senzhi. It does make sense that the local PSB would be the final authority on the matter. I think I'll get in touch with them.

But, if in the meantime any other readers can additionally confirm or refute Senzhi's and my suspicions I'd appreciate the input.

[adrianlondon]

does an F visa require a residence permit, or not?

No.

Unless something fundamental has changed recently. As far as I'm aware, nothing at all has changed for ages. Even the "Olympic restrictions" were just a tigher enforcement of existing rules which previously were bent/ignored.

[Entropy_Rising]

Thanks. The picture is becoming more and more clear as time passes; I hope I can convince my handlers that they... well, for lack of a better way to put it, don't know what they're supposed to know and that I don't need a living permit... without causing too much loss of face, heh heh.

For anyone else who may find myself in my situation in the future (unlikely, I think), I found a few documents that I just inundated my uni's foreign affairs office with.

From the China's Houston Consulate -

http://houston.china-consulate.org/chn/qzhz/zgqz/t53255.htm

> 4、中国使领馆签发给长期留学生的X签证为三个月一次入境有效，无具体停留期,在签证上表示为"入境 后可停留000天"。持X签证者自入境之日起30日内须到所在地公安局办理居留手续，以避免非法居留。居留证有效期即为持证人在华停留期限。如需要，在获 居留证后可向当地公安局申请多次入出境X签证。

> 5、中国使领馆签发给短期留学生的F签证为三个月一次入境有效，并限定具体停留期，在签证上表示为"入境后可停留XXX天"（XXX代表数字）。

From Urumqi PSB's Border Supervision Regulations

http://wr.cccv.cn/xj17u/art200844155841602.shtm

（5）如果持定居（d）、 职业（z ）、学习（x）和记者境管理处办理《外国人居留证》

And from what I hope will be the deal-breaker, "Laws and Effective Regulations regarding Foreigner Entry into and Exit from the People's Republic of China" straight from the Foreign Ministry's site

http://www.fmprc.gov.cn/chn/lsfw/xgfg/t9778.htm

第十六条　持标有Ｄ、Ｚ、Ｘ、Ｊ—１字签证的外国人，必须自入境之日起３０日内到居住地市、县公安局办理外国人居留证或者外国人临时居留证。上述居留证件的有效期即为准许持证人在中国居留的期限。

外国人居留证，发给在中国居留１年以上的人员。

外国人临时居留证，发给在中国居留不满１年的人员。

持标有Ｆ、Ｌ、Ｇ、Ｃ字签证的外国人，可以在签证注明的期限内在中国停留，不需办理居留证件。

[Senzhi]

This is one of many reasons why I usually never hand over my passport to schools/employers. I only give them a copy.

If the school/employer requests my passport for visa issues, I "gently" refuse handing it over, but instead offer to accompany them to the relevant authorities.

And those authorities issue their receipt to me, never to the school/employer.

Besides the above, there's always the risk of the passport getting lost by an incompetent member of staff. Better safe than sorry.

Edited September 30, 2008 at 01:20 PM by Senzhi

[Entropy_Rising]

Ugh... this isn't looking good at all. China is the kind of place where you can have all the official documents and laws in the world and still not be able to prove your case. Despite the overwhelming evidence proving the contrary, the administration is still insisting that I get a residence permit which would cut my anticipated time here short by an entire month.

Do you guys have any suggestions on what I should do? Should I bother fighting it? Or is it a lost cause? Should I just lay down and accept it?

[Senzhi]

Sounds like the administration might not be that incompetent, but have a specific (dodgy) reason for this. You'd need to find out the exact reason, and start negotiating from there. Seek if you can find out a win/win solution (so that they don't lose face neither).

"Fighting" is not always the best option, as you might lose more than you wish for. It's better to see which solution offers the least loss for you. However, I'd be very careful handing over my passport to people who behave in an unprofessional way.

[imron]

I also agree that you shouldn't need a residence permit. As long as they don't have your passport what can they do about it?

[bianfuxia]

The visa grants you entry to the country for the specified time. The permit gives you permission to live where you are living. If you are not staying at a hotel or similar, then the law requires you to register with the local police. There have been big signs up in my neighbourhood (Xidan) about this since before the Olympics.The temporary residence permit registers you in your neighbourhood.

One thing you might try is finding some accommodation elsewhere for the last month. When your residence permit expires, just move house, register with the local police and get a new temporary residence permit for that neighbourhood.

I don't know if you've resolved this yet, but I have been living on F visas now for a while (since february) and required Temporary Residence Permits from the local police for each one. We were actually visited by the police reminding us to get them when we first arrived (which was actually "returning" after about 6 months away from our house).

In my case, the F visas have always been 30 days per entry, so each I time I come back in from Hong Kong, I roll up to the police and they give me a permit that lasts 30 days after the entry stamp in my passport.

I have always had to register visitors (on L visas) in the same way. In those cases, they get a residence permit lasting until the date I tell the police the visitor will leave my house. Presumably the police assume that the visitors will be registered by whatever hotel or private citizen they end up with after me.

I am not an expert on the law but this is what has happened with me.

In your case, I'd be asking why the permit isn't to last the full validity of the visa. Perhaps they only want you to stay in the accommodation for a shorter period and they don't want to have to vouch for you afterwards? Our landlady was required to sign a form saying we wouldn't cause trouble during the Olympics, and so perhaps they do not want to have any responsibility for you after they're through with you, regardless of when your visa expires.

Anyway, let us know how it resolves/ed itself.

[roddy]

Careful, we're getting confusion between the registration of where you are living with the police, and the residence permit from the PSB entry-exit authorities. See here and then remember that was written a year ago.

All sounds a bit mad for me - it's possible some PSBs are now treating F visas for students like X visas - ie you need to change onto a residence permit.

Not sure where the situation stands at the moment, but I think if this was me I'd be inclined to keep my passport in my own possession and say no thanks, I have a perfectly good visa. I doubt any local PSB is going to throw you out of the country when you have a visa which was issued quite a bit up the food chain.

[Senzhi]

Not sure where the situation stands at the moment, but I think if this was me I'd be inclined to keep my passport in my own possession and say no thanks, I have a perfectly good visa. I doubt any local PSB is going to throw you out of the country when you have a visa which was issued quite a bit up the food chain.

I absolutely agree. There's a big difference between schools/employers trying, thinking you don't know anything about regulations (because you're not Chinese) ... and succeeding (because you DO know the regulations).

[Entropy_Rising]

I want to thank all of you who took some time to drop some advice. I also want to say that I was so desperate for a wide array of information that I went to other China expat forums and while I was treated extremely rudely and condescendingly at one of them (cough Shanghai expat cough) people here were very friendly and helpful. And that's why I post here and not there.

This problem ended, thankfully, on a happy note. I kept my passport with me as many recommended and when I brought the proper legal documents to the PSB, it was sent to a higher level, where they confirmed my understanding of the law was correct and an F visa does not require a living permit. I am very one happy camper. Thanks again! And I hope this post becomes useful should this happen to anyone else in the future.

[anonymoose]

I'm told I need to get a temporary living permit

It sounds like you're on death row or something.

For future reference, you don't need a permit to live. If your living permit is only temporary, then I'd forget about visa issues and just enjoy your last few days on earth.