Teaching Job Guangdong - Excellent Package

[banksie]

this post has been removed

[roddy]

Moved from classifieds so I can point out that this is exactly the kind of agency you should avoid. Three hundred quid to get a job teaching English in China? Short of some of the 'volunteer' gap year operators that's one of the worst I've seen.

Edit: And you are hoping for QTS? Hang on, let me get you a stick for that moon . . .

[banksie]

I understand your point, however for those with no experience of working abroad they may prefer to have the support and backing of an independent agency, both pre departure and whilst in China. I myself have taught in China through CIEE and I can tell you it was a lot more expensive than what is advertised here, and for a package not even half as attractive as this.

[BrandeX]

"As this?", is that some kind of joke? Full time jobs in Guangdong should be 10k+ Right now I myself am getting 13k a month for under 20 hours. GD is one of the expensive provinces, not China's undeveloped country side. Also, taking into consideration a good deal of foreigners left this year due to the visa issues, the pool is a lot smaller. Perhaps that is what you are banking on then, trying to arrange a sap still in their home country.

[Senzhi]

If accepted for one these position an arrangement fee of £295 will be payable to cover,

... and since when do jobseeksers have to pay an agency to find a job?

I work in GD, and no, not in Guangzhou. However, I do earn more than this offer offers (and work less hours!), while Guangzhou is one of the more expensive cities.

In addition, I never had to pay a thing for what you call:

* CV preparation for the Chinese market

* Visa arrangements

* pre-departure orientation

* emergency contacts

* mitigation for any problems arising between yourself and the school

Reminds me of something I wrote in a recent post: "You foreigner, you rich, you also stupid." That's how this advertisement makes me feel.

Nice try ...

[banksie]

You don't have to guess that we are trying to recruit people outside of China, its clear from the advert. The school in question have failed to recruit teachers already in China so they approached us. Maybe that was due to the package which you claim is poor, but which is superior to anything else I have seen advertised in the classifieds here or offered by other agencies, e.g. CIEE Teach in China programme: 3000RMB per month, one way flight, accommodation, US$1900 programme fee.

Well done to you, BrandeX, on obtaining such a great salary for such little work, especially if it includes accommodation, food and return air tickets. I wasn't making a comparison between what those that have arranged their own jobs may earn, but what is on offer from other agencies that recruit people from outside of China. Obviously you can organise your own position in China, but like I said before some people are willing to pay for someone else to do the organising for them and provide support in China. I've read a number of posts on these forums about teachers in conflict with their employers, dodgy contracts, withheld passports etc. If you're teaching in China for the first time you may like some independent support, which is what we offer. If not then fine, like you they can choose to go it alone, but not everyone is like you.

I really don't understand why this post has been singled out. Its clearly aimed at those who are not already in China and it is offering a service for which you are asked to pay a fair price. If it is not suitable for you then pass, but there is no need lambaste it on a public forum just because it does not meet your requirements or expectations. Fair enough if it had been posted in the forum that Roddy has now moved it to, but it was originally posted to the Classified section and it meets the rules of posting. If agencies such as this are not welcome it should be stated in the "Classifieds: Read BEFORE Posting" thread.

@Senzhi - This job is not in Guangzhou either. I'd love to know who you organised your position through and is providing all this support for free. The agencies that claim to organise things for free for you are usually taking a cut elsewhere, such as only offering one way flights instead of return or not offering the other benefits. At least we are upfront about it. If you don't need these things then that's OK, but some people do.

I don't appreciate your "You foreigner, you rich, you also stupid." comment. We are not hiding anything here or trying to cheat anyone. If you don't like the price or don't need this service then go elsewhere.

[roddy]

There are surely any number of agencies (and schools) offering similar or better packages, without a 300 pound up front fee. At the lower end of your salary scale that's the lion's share of a months wage.

The reason CIEE and similar are able to charge a fee is because they are established and providing peace of mind for those coming over, and perhaps more importantly given the fresh-graduate target market, their parents. With all due respect, as far as I can see your agency has sprung into existence over the weekend.

[banksie]

OK, my mistake, the title of the post reads Guangzhou, instead of Guangdong! Apologies to Senzhi. Roddy can I edit the title?

[banksie]

Roddy, every company has to start somewhere.

I've seen your website and its clear that you dislike agencies such as mine. However, I feel it was a little underhand of you to use my post to vent your distaste. You should make it clear in your rules of posting that agencies charging a fee are not welcome. You should have contacted me after vetting the post rather than using it for your own means.

[Senzhi]

I'd love to know who you organised your position through and is providing all this support for free.

I didn't organise anything: I was invited. Visa arrangements are done and paid for by the employer, that's standard. If not, I simply won't even bother to get out of my lousy chair.

Emergency contacts don't need to be organised. I have them already. They are called: family and relatives. Not sure what any kind of agency could do better.

Mitigation has always been a shady subject. I would never spend money on that, unless it wourd turn out to become the worst case scenario: a law suit. Then I'll happily spend money on an agency: a legal agency.

I don't appreciate your "You foreigner, you rich, you also stupid." comment.

You don't have to. It's just how your ad makes me feel. I didn't appreciate it neither. Neither do I appreciate any agency/company that requests payments from jobseekers. Standard business practice says that recruitment agencies get their revenues from employers, not from potential candidates.

[Senzhi]

I've seen your website and its clear that you dislike agencies such as mine. However, I feel it was a little underhand of you to use my post to vent your distaste. You should make it clear in your rules of posting that agencies charging a fee are not welcome. You should have contacted me after vetting the post rather than using it for your own means.

I agree with Roddy: he's protecting the members and readers of this forum. Nothing more, nothing less.

Information is key ... being informed even more. That's what this forum is all about.

So I personally appreciate Roddy's actions/decisions.

And guess what? I never had to pay him anything.

[banksie]

That's fine. What I take issue with is the way he has gone about 'protecting' his members. If he did not like the post he should have rejected it at the vetting stage, not used it for this purpose. If he wants to have a discussion about recruitment agencies etc he should have started a new thread. There was no need to bring my agency into this by moving it out of the classifieds section and then opening it for ridicule.

Sorry, but in case you didn't realise there is a market for this type of service and in this market charging a fee is standard business practice. If you have emergency contacts in China and people to sort out the dodgy contract you may have signed up to then good for you, but not everyone does. Imagine if you spoke no Chinese and had never been to China before, would you not appreciate assistance from an third party independent of the school? (my guess is you will say no )

Anyhow, we obviously disagree, so

[roddy]

Wait, one of the advantages of using your agency is that you'll help get teachers out of the dodgy contract, which they signed up to via . . .

There's a market for extended warranties too. Doesn't make them a good idea. If you don't like the way the topic is going, edit out all your posts, or just the information that identifies the firm.

[davidj]

Standard business practice says that recruitment agencies get their revenues from employers, not from potential candidates.

I believe that is a legal requirement in the UK. The legislation is section 6(1) of the Employment Agencies Act 1973. There are certain exceptions, loosely for performers. Source: Summary Guidance on the Employment Agencies Legislation

[Senzhi]

Imagine if you spoke no Chinese and had never been to China before, would you not appreciate assistance from an third party independent of the school?

Of course! And I had the case. And the party that helped me was called: embassy (or consulate). They're very good at such things: they know both cultures and both legal systems.

The other party I'd recommend is the site you're now looking at. The people here are also independent on their opinions (good or not so good). I've learned so much from here, that in fact, my Chinese colleagues (who don't know the site yet), are asking me advice. Particularly on visa issues.

It's very difficult to see, like Roddy says, how a third party, offering positions from employers who I must assume you also would get a substantial revenue from, can be independent. In China, people (Chinese and foreign) will always be very wary about this. Rightfully so.

[Senzhi]

I believe that is a legal requirement in the UK. The legislation is section 6(1) of the Employment Agencies Act 1973. There are certain exceptions, loosely for performers. Source: Summary Guidance on the Employment Agencies Legislation

Agreed. And thanks for sparing me to search the info. Practically all EU countries have this in their local legislations.

The problem here is that, once problems start, the candidate would already be in China, under a Chinese employment contract (= Chinese legislation), while the OP would do his business under a UK contract (= UK legislation). The candidate would, in such a case, only be able to defend himself either trough negotiation (which in most cases turns in favour of the employer), or through legal means. In case of legal means, only professional legal people would be able to help, without a guarantee of a satisfying resolution. But definitely not a UK based recruitment company that would have just started business. Simply not powerful enough to negate in favour of a candidate.

[banksie]

Roddy are you are insinuating that we would ask candidates to sign up to dodgy contracts? I would like to draw your attention to your post here

http://www.chinese-forums.com/index.php?/topic/1959-terms-and-conditions

• If you wish to warn other members about a company or individual you believe presents a risk (ie a study-aboard company you believe is incompetent, or an employer that did not pay you) please include facts, not opinions - "X didn't pay us for three months", rather than "X is evil."

So, facts please, not opinions. Same applies to you too Senzhi. Its unfair to suggest that we would be signing candidates up to inappropriate contracts.

On the issue of employment agencies, charging workers a fee for finding them a job is prohibited. As stated in the advert the fee is not for finding them a job, but for the in-country support etc.

Oh and Senzhi, you probably wont believe this but we would not receive any revenue from the employers.

[Senzhi]

Oh and Senzhi, you probably wont believe this but we would not receive any revenue from the employers.

No, I simply don't. More than 20 years of international business experience tells me your business would not survive.

[banksie]

Well, its been an interesting conversation guys. Thanks for your input. Obviously I targeted the wrong audience here, but no hard feelings. I still enjoy reading this helpful forum.

[davidj]

On the issue of employment agencies, charging workers a fee for finding them a job is prohibited. As stated in the advert the fee is not for finding them a job, but for the in-country support etc.

I'm not sure if the OP is in the UK, but again from Summary Guidance on the Employment Agencies Legislation

.

Additional services - regulation 5

An agency/employment business cannot require the work-seeker to use any other service it may provide, such as training or photography, for which it can make a charge, or hiring or buying goods, as a condition for providing work finding services to the work-seeker.