Beginner question: pronunciation of final i

[marksealey]

Much enjoying New Practical Chinese Reader. Several times in each lesson the speaker seems to be pronouncing a monosyllable ending in ì, í or ī (4th, 2nd, 1st tone i) more like ü.

For example sì ('4') and cí ('new'). I think I even detect it with qī ('7').

Is my discrimination not yet acute enough, or is it a rule?

TIA to anyone who can help .

[HashiriKata]

I don't use the book but from what you said, I'd assume you've got it wrong, since ü and i (in sì) and i (in qī) are three separate sounds.

1. ü and i (in qī): the tip of your tongue is in the front, near your front teeth. With ü, your lips are rounded but with i (in qī), your lips are wide spread.

2. i (in sì): your tongue is further back than 1 above, and your lips are less spread, less tensed than for i (in qī).

[marksealey]

Thanks, HashiriKata

I appreciate how different ü and ì (etc) are, I think. But the sound the speaker makes is certainly not that of an 'i' - it's much further forward in the mouth!

Maybe the i (various tones) is being pronounced more quickly (or trailing away)?

Thanks so much for the advice on tongue positions.

[davidj]

i represents three different close vowels in Mandarin. Generally they all involve minimal tongue movement from the preceding consonant, so the i after c is basically a zzzzz sound and that after sh is a retroflexive rrrrr sound, although, in both cases, the tongue is maybe not as close.

ü is the same sound as the qi type i, but rounded. There is a process in spoken language called sandhi (a Sanskrit word), in which sounds are changed by the adjacent sounds, often because it is difficult not to make the changes. It wouldn't surprise me if i followed by w tended towards ü, but I don't think there is any tone based difference.

I think it is pretty much physically impossible to change ci into cü.

[marksealey]

davidj,

Thanks so much - that's very helpful. I have a feeling that when I next listen to the audio in question your explanation will ring very true... I suspect I am hearing that 'zzzzz' and 'rrrr'

Again - appreciated!

[Hofmann]

Man, I hate how textbooks and stuff don't explain this.

In Hanyu Pinyin, the letter i (among others) doesn't function the same way everywhere.

zhi, chi, shi: the vowel is ʐ̩. It's like saying voiced "shhhhhh" but with your tongue a bit further from the top of your mouth so that there's no more buzzing sound.

zi, ci, si: the vowel is z̩. It's like "zzzzzzzz" but with your tongue a bit further from the top of your mouth so that there's no more buzzing sound.

[renzhe]

Yeah, that's one of the things I dislike about Hanyu Pinyin.

Essentially, the -i after r, zh, ch, sh, z, c, and s is silent. I've also heard it pronounced this way after q. Just think of it as sounding the initial longer and having no final.

The -i after any other initial is pronounced clearly, as an "eeee" sound.

The idea is that the voiced -i cannot come after r, zh, ch, etc., and the unvoiced -i cannot come after the others, so they can use the same final. A bit confusing in the beginning.

[marksealey]

Thanks; very clear. I'm thinking that's what I hear .

[OneEye]

The best pinyin/pronunciation course I've ever seen was in FSI's Stadard Chinese: A Modular Approach. The Pronunciation and Romanization section of the Resource Module is what you're looking for. My pinyin understanding was solid after a few days with that.

[marksealey]

Thanks, OneEye,

It's one (which) of these two, isn't it?

1975?

[atitarev]

Yeah, that's one of the things I dislike about Hanyu Pinyin.

Without letter "i" the spelling would be even more confusing, unless a new letter with some diacritics were created.

[imron]

The FSI Chinese course is now freely available and can be found here.

[johnmck]

I also recommend the FSI Romanisation and Pronunciation section. One hour a day for a week should sort out your pinyin.

From what I understand the FSI (Foreign Services Institute) produced the course for the Diplomatic Corps using American taxpayer dollars, this means there is no copyright on the work. Hence the free mp3 and PDF versions on the web are legal.

I am currently following the entire course and while it is a very good course, it is very dull. It is also a very big course (300 tapes). What I thought would be a one-year course now looks like it will be two-year

[marksealey]

Thanks!

[OneEye]

Yeah, that's the one.

It is a great course, but johnmck is right. It's very boring. I'd recommend using it for a good foundation, but don't force yourself to use it longer than you can stand. There are much more interesting materials out there.

[marksealey]

Thanks to everyone who suggested FSI.

I've downloaded the 'Tapes' (into iTiunes - as mp3s) and the PDF for the Resource Module.

It is indeed one of the more thorough pronunciation sources, isn't it. Really useful