Erhua (儿化）considered standard in Mandarin?

[Murray]

I was wondering how common using Erhua (adding 儿 to the endings of certain words) was in Mandarin? Is it solely a Beijing thing or for North Chinese in general? I'm doing my third semester of Chinese study and the answer seems to be a toss up depending on who you ask.

We're using Integrated Chinese in my course, and in the book, certain words will be listed as having the option to add 儿 pronunciation, but lately I'm hearing words pronounced with the r sound that aren't listed as having this option in my book. Ex: 公园儿 gōngyuánr, which is listed as just gōngyuán in the text.

I enjoy this pronunciation, so I use it whenever possible, but sometimes when I've been talking to a South Chinese or Taiwanese person they will correct a 儿 sound and tell me it's not necessary. Other times, there will be an 儿 listing in the text that my professor will tell us is strange to use, like saying 明儿 instead of 明天.

So, what's the deal with 儿？When is it okay to use? Who uses it? Will my Chinese sound more native using this accent?

[renzhe]

You should differentiate between Mandarin and Putonghua. Mandarin is a group of dialects, and Putonghua is the standard pronunciation of Mandarin. Many northern variants of Mandarin use 儿 a lot, and many southern variants don't. But with Putonghua, it is very clear where you should use the 儿 and where not, and can be seen in a dictionary, for example.

There are some cases where the 儿 retroflex is standard in putonghua, like 哪儿 or 一点儿, but it doesn't come up too often, especially compared to the northern dialects. The northern dialects will add 儿 all over the place.

I wouldn't recommend forcing a Beijing accent, I'd stick to the way things are written and pronounced in your textbook, and keep in mind that northern people will use erhua more often. I'd only recommend it if you already have a good grip of the standard accent and are living in a region where erhua is prevalent (like Beijing).

[imron]

The answer is yes. There are words for which adding erhua is considered standard Putonghua. See here for a list, and here for recordings. If you take the 普通话水平测试 (a putonghua test for native Chinese speakers) and fail to pronounce erhua on these words, you will lose marks - likewise if you add erhua where you shouldn't.

[Murray]

Thanks for the list!

[skylee]

You should differentiate between Mandarin and Putonghua. Mandarin is a group of dialects, and Putonghua is the standard pronunciation of Mandarin.

I don't understand.

[renzhe]

The way I understand it (and I could be wrong), but standard Putonghua is to Mandarin what Hochdeutsch is to German, and what BBC English is to (British) English.

I.e. a very clearly defined, standardised form of Mandarin. And it defines where erhua should be used and where not, although this varies regionally among different native speakers of Mandarin.

Just like in Germany, the pronunciation and accent varies wildly among native speakers (compare the pronunciation in Hamburg, Rostock, Berlin and Cologne), but the standard Hochdeutsch is clearly defined, and promoted on public media, spoken by actors, learnt by foreigners, etc.

[trevelyan]

It's standard. Learn it if you'd like to come across as having reasonable Chinese.

[Hofmann]

I wouldn't put it that way. I'd say that most people in China don't speak Putonghua (although they like to think they do).

Anyway, Mandarin with an abundance of 兒化 isn't standard. If it gets too troublesome, just do away with it altogether, as the southerners do. 哪裏 can replace 哪兒.

[Murray]

Ah, I know all about Southerners using 里 in place of Erhua. Is that seen as less standard than 儿 sound?

[atitarev]

Hofmann, perceptions don't make Erhua (in a list of certain words) non-standard. You may get a better deal when shopping if you speak a local dialect but it doesn't define the standard Putonghua. Some people perceive differently what the standards are should be or don't know the current standards, so you get different opinion about the same topic but HSK is a very good indication of what the current standard is.

I asked this question before. Sorry, don't remember, either Skylee or Gato provided a good link saying what's standard. Imron's link look pretty indicative too.

Although Taiwanese Mandarin (Guoyu) does not have the same standard for Erhua but there are the most common words, which are also included and considered standard in Taiwan as well, like 哪兒 and 這兒

哪裏 can replace 哪兒

Yes, it can but doesn't have to.

[BrandeX]

It's standard. Learn it if you'd like to come across as having reasonable Chinese.

I disagree, and it sounds ridiculous. The farther you are from a median pronunciation (have a bigger accent related to your dialect), the less educated people think you are. (as I have been told by Chinese)

Edited October 17, 2008 at 09:13 AM by BrandeX
typo

[atitarev]

I heard these opinions too, even some Putonghua teachers support them. The trouble is, those people are not the regulators of standard Mandarin and they won't asses your Chinese for entering a University or applying for some jobs. The further south you go, the less Erhua you hear, it's true and Erhua doesn't sound too pleasing to them but as I said there are lists of words with Ehua, which are considered standard.

I checked more carefully Imron's links on erisation (erhua). The lists are quite good.

--

I also agree with the Chinese from North-East of China. They say (about erhua) - Putonghua is more related to Dongbei, it's more a or less for them to decide what's the current standard. The rest of China follows the example with some delays. The words that should use erhua sound weird to Northerners without erhua.

Edited October 17, 2008 at 05:22 AM by atitarev

[trevelyan]

BrandeX - if you speak standard mandarin in southern China people will roll with it and switch to a more standard pronunciation. No-one should have any problem communicating using putonghua in Shanghai or Shenzhen.

Conversely, if you try speaking a more southern dialect in northern China you'll confuse the people who aren't laughing at you. Respectfully, people come here for advice on how to learn. Telling them to focus on Shenzhenhua because they go to sourcing fairs in Shenzhen isn't doing them any favours.

[Hofmann]

I didn't define what is standard, in case you got that idea.

[imron]

but HSK is a very good indication of what the current standard is.

And the 普通话水平测试 (PCS) exam I linked to above can be more or less considered the definitive standard, at least for mainland China. This is the test people need to pass to become TV broadcasters, teachers etc.

Ah, I know all about Southerners using 里 in place of Erhua. Is that seen as less standard than 儿 sound?

I think you're confusing concepts a little. They don't use 里 in place of Erhua as such, it's just that in standard putonghua there are some words that use erhua that have equivalents without erhua e.g. 这里, 那里 etc. These are also perfectly acceptable words in standard putonghua and are used by northerners from time to time too. You definitely can't replace 儿 with 里 everywhere it occurs.

The farther you are from a median pronunciation (have a bigger accent related to your dialect), the less educated people think you are. (as I have been told be Chinese)

Do the people in Guangdong find news presenters to be uneducated?

Anyway, adding 儿 where you are not supposed to (which happens a lot in the north) is just as wrong (according to the standard) as not adding 儿 where you are supposed to.

[BrandeX]

Do the people in Guangdong find news presenters to be uneducated?

Seemingly by their comments. News presenters "here" don't seem to use erhua much from what I notice ( I only watch news in the passing when my family is). Mostly only migrants will watch cctv. My local friends that don't speak canto (i.e hakka/putonghua) also don't use erhua, nor watch cctv or far northern type tv news/shows. Anyways, just observations, and comments, I've passed on from locals. I'm just a learner here.

[Jialihai Jiejie]

The bottom line is:-

Avoid erhualisation where necessary. Anyway, I don't normally erhualise my Chinese.

Jialihai Jiejie

[wushijiao]

From a linguistic sense, I think, erhua is not always socially seen as standard, since there are de facto social standards (.ie, top business leaders in southern China and Standing Committee Polituburo members speak without erhua). I think, in a sense, certain regions are developing their own forms of de facto standards of Mandarin. In other words, there are parts of China (ie. southern parts of China) in which people speak a non-erhua form of Mandarin, and these people are often highly educated and sometimes may even be native Mandarin speakers. In their daily life, they don't change to erhua, because they already speak the most valued variety of Putonghua for their area. So, from this point of view, socially speaking, erhua may not be needed.

Nonetheless, as imron pointed ot, certain exams and in certain formal media settings (CCTV broadcasts), erhua is seen as the standard.

As for me, I'm 100% neutral on the issue. Some people will always place socio-linguistic value on certain things that should be seen as arbitrary, if you ask me.

[sweetcheri]

Adding 儿 isn't 普通话, I don't think. In Beijing, you hear them talking like that a lot. In fact, that's also how I speak Chinese. But there are tons of dialects in China. Putonghua is what textbooks teach~

儿 isn't the only one too. People in Northern China (i.e. Dongbei) have a habit of saying "啥" instead of "什么“.

Here's one phrase in three different dialects:

Putonghua: 这是什么东西？ <-- Standard

Beijing dialect: 这是什么玩意儿？

Sichuanese: 这是嘛东西？

Dongbei: 这是啥东西？

As you can see, there are many ways to say one simple phrase. It depends on which region you come from or grew up in. However, Putonghua is just standard, and is not so elaborate. Just stick with what the textbook or whatever teaches you.

In China, learning Putonghua is enough, because that's the unifying dialect. For example, I cannot understand Sichuanese at all, but when I speak to someone from Sichuan in Putonghua, they will respond that way as well.

[chrix]

The list given above by imron is great, but I was wondering if that's a complete list of rhoticised words in Standard Mandarin? At least there seem to be no monosyllabics on it. Anyone aware of a list including monosyllabics?

EDIT： I've found this helpful looking link.

Edited November 23, 2009 at 12:37 PM by chrix