Erhua (儿化）considered standard in Mandarin?

[chrix]

sorry, I'm still a bit confused here, does anyone know if 喜欢儿 is not considered standard? This is one of the few erhua words I've ever learnt, but yet it doesn't seem to appear in the lists I'm looking at...

[atitarev]

I don't think it's standard, as it's not appearing in this spelling (喜欢儿) in the HSK word list. Words like 丫头 are often pronounced with 儿化 but seldom spelled that way. Even if Northerners say it's weird no to say it, it must be acceptable to omit it, since it's not written.

[renzhe]

sorry, I'm still a bit confused here, does anyone know if 喜欢儿 is not considered standard?

I don't think so. I've never heard that one.

[chrix]

atitarev, often these things are written without, my otherwise great dictionary also omits them except for certain highly colloquial items such as 没词儿 or items that can't be used without it (even by speakers who otherwise do not rhoticise) such as 哪儿. The textbook I used back then (I think it was the Yale primer) used fantizi, but would put a small supercript 儿 after each word that was to be rhoticised... But the HSK list is of course a good indicator of what's indicated standard and what not, thanks for pointing that out to me...!

[atitarev]

You are welcome.

items that can't be used without it (even by speakers who otherwise do not rhoticise) such as 哪儿

These people will always find a way how NOT to rhoticise even for words where it's standard to use Erhua, as there are synonyms or just words without this suffix

味儿=味道, 哪儿=哪里, 玩儿=玩

[chrix]

yes, that's what happens, there are some words though that don't work without erhua, such as 干活儿, and I think 一会儿 is also usually not used without 儿, causing people to use other phrases, e.g. 一下 etc..

Edited November 23, 2009 at 01:41 PM by chrix

[xiaocai]

Yes, that's what happens, there are some words though that don't work without erhua, such as 干活儿, and I think 一会儿 is also usually not used without 儿, causing people to use other phrases, e.g. 一下 etc..

Hmm, I think 干活 is ok but 一会 is not.

Sichuanese: 这是嘛东西？

This is certainly not 四川话. (Sounds more like 天津话 to me.)

Edited November 23, 2009 at 04:22 PM by xiaocai

[querido]

Transcripts for the recordings linked to by imron in post #3 are here!

Can anyone cite the authority behind the pthcs test?

It isn't just "common usage" or one particular university course, but a *standard* developed by the Chinese government, right? And it's widely used to prepare for careers in communications?

As a beginner with too many decisions of this kind to make, and without grounds for following my *own* aesthetics (aside from loving the lady who does the audio for my children's books), I would tend to trust the above. "Considered standard", by whom? By the most widely influential body? That seems like a safe choice to me.

Shouldn't these pthcs test preparation materials be in the "resources" sticky?

[chrix]

Well, as I said, while it's a great resource, their list is not complete and doesn't include any monosyllabics.

What I'm grappling with the most are the numerous cases where mainland dictionaries do not record 儿 yet they appear in the official-looking list I linked to in an earlier post on this thread. So I'm not sure if these might be optional cases where in the Beijing standard you might or might not rhoticise it, or if it's just a matter of convenience of not having to add another character in writing...

[querido]

To chrix: Yes, your question about completeness is important. Imron said above (and elsewhere I think) that

If you ... fail to pronounce erhua on these words, you will lose marks - likewise if you add erhua where you shouldn't.

So, *that* test doesn't recognize any others, or maybe they just didn't bother to include some others in the study materials. Thus, my question about its authority (which could lead to more information). I'm just a beginner snooping around with pera-kun.

I saw the list you linked to. In one case I noticed, Wenlin says 一气儿 is "colloquial", but not 一气. So that's probably part of the answer- colloquialisms. The title of that list says "commonly used", and while that carries a practical weight, the same question applies: "considered standard" or considered "commonly used", by whom? (www.hozoo.com.cn ... I wonder who they are exactly.) It still looks like a good list unless it conflicts with my current authority, Wenlin.

[chrix]

I can't speak to the list's authority, but it is for people preparing for the 教师资格考试....

[imron]

It's the authoritative test for native speakers to assess their level of Chinese, and broadcasters, teachers and various other professions are required to obtain certain levels on this test in order to gain employment. See here for the history (in Chinese), but basically it was established by the 国家语言文字工作委员会, the 国家教育委员会 and the 国家广播电影电视部 in 1994.

[chrix]

oh no doubt about the test, we were more wondering about the authoritativeness of the list(s). If it's got any kind of official connection to the test people are preparing for...

[atitarev]

Trouble with the authoritativeness is that there will always be people or even scholars who will argue. Standard Mandarin has slight variations in Beijing, Taiwan, South-East Asia and even southern China and Hong Kong. One of my Chinese teacher (originally from Shanghai but speaking very standard Mandarin, also uses Erhua - sparingly) said that 味儿 is too "Beijinghua". Well, the word was used in "New Practical Chinese Reader 3". I think the vocabulary and accent used in this textbook is very standard. He agreed then, that this must be the current standard.

I tend to follow Beijing as the authority in this (government and TV, not the Beijing dialect) and arguments of those who say Mandarin is "our native language but other Chinese people use it as a second language". The best indication of what is considered standard - CCTV, HSK tests, many standard textbooks from mainland China.

I asked a person from Tianjin - Is 玩儿 or 玩 correct? She says - 玩儿. I said - but people in the south China say it's not standard! She says - Why should they decide what is right in Mandarin if it's not their first language? It made sense to me.

[chrix]

yes, atitarev, all very true, I'm aware of the variation. But if I understand imron correctly, there is some kind of standard that has been prescribed by some authoritative government body, and I'm interested in finding out about that. Asking your Chinese teachers will only lead to the confusion described by you...

[imron]

oh no doubt about the test, we were more wondering about the authoritativeness of the list(s)[/color'].

Can anyone cite the authority behind the pthcs test?

It isn't just "common usage" or one particular university course' date=' but a *standard* developed by the Chinese government, right?[/quote']I can't comment on the authoritativeness of the lists, as these appear on websites related to studying for the test rather than on the official site of the 国家语言文字工作委员会. There is almost certainly an official 大纲 somewhere that outlines them, although I don't have time to look for that at the moment. The test however is definitely developed by the Chinese government and presumably the people preparing studying material for the tests have access to the 大纲 so I don't imagine the lists provided online will be too far off.

[Manuel]

Erhua? What use is it? Chinese is already hard enough, why add more complexity? I live in Wuxi and here people say 哪里 and 一点点 instead of 哪儿 and 一点儿.

As a learner, if adding 儿 makes no difference to the original meaning my gut tells me it makes more sense to leave it out. Having 儿s all over the place is, to my mind, useless and distracting. I also do not like the way it sounds (and I have spent a while in the north), but that's just me.

The northern accent is considered standard only for historical reasons, not because it is more practical or sounds better. So if you've got other things to do, maybe drop the 儿s!

[atitarev]

You can speak what you feel comfortable with, Manuel, but please don't tell everybody it's standard. HSK and other standard tests include them so do all the mainland text. It's considered normal to use in the Northern part of China. Please read the thread more carefully, as there are Erhua words, which are standard and which are not, and even Taiwan considers them standard.

[Manuel]

I know there are erhua words that are standard. I meant the ones that are non-standard. Anyway this is clearly a personal prefernce, as many enjoy using erhua, so to each his own. I worship simplicity and therefore I would go as far as eradicating the chinese script altogether and make pinyin the official writing system, and I would applaud the Chinese government for making this happen. How wonderful it would be! Erhua, hanzi... yeah very cool, very interesting, very beautiful, etc, whatever, but the language should be as logical as possible as it's just a tool to get the job done, i.e. to communicate thoughts. These are my views as a learner.

[Shi Tong]

Erhua? What use is it? Chinese is already hard enough, why add more complexity? I live in Wuxi and here people say 哪里 and 一点点 instead of 哪儿 and 一点儿.

I agree that erhua has no use, but I also think that, for instance, if you want to say "one pen" you dont say "yi ge bi", you say "yi zhi bi".

What use is it?

None at all, it's just a different word to join up things- zhi means "stick like object" but who cares?

The problem is that if you use "ge" for everything, you will sound like you've not learned very good Chinese-- tell me what you'd think if someone said "look at that herd of birds"?

People in Taiwan say yidiandian and nali instead of yidianer and naer, but they also TEACH the standard which is that yidianer and naer are the "correct" forms.

That said, why not just adjust to your environment? When I go to Taiwan I dont say "yidianer is correct, not yidiandian", I just go with the flow and speak in a Taiwanese way.

As a learner, if adding 儿 makes no difference to the original meaning my gut tells me it makes more sense to leave it out.

Absolutely, but dont leave it out in a test where it's esential.

That's like saying you like traditional characters more, so you dont want to write simplified when you're learning in China.

I personally (on a totally shallow level) dont like erhua, and I dont like (on a totally shallow level) simplified characters, so I learn my Mandarin in Taiwan where they still use traditional characters and speak without erhua, but that doesn't mean to say that if I'm doing a test in northern China where I'm expected to use erhua, I can get away with not worrying about it.

atitarev,

Manuel wasn't saying it's not standard, he's saying what is considered standard is for historical reasons, and what's standard in the North isn't necessarily in the South.

That said, IT IS considered standard, even in Taiwan.

The point is this:

If you speak Mandarin in a region where they dont use erhua, then dont use it, people:

a) might not understand you and

B) might think you sound strange or

c) might correct you (annoyingly).

however, as I said before, it doesn't matter what's spoken, it matters what is correct, IF YOU'RE DOING A TEST about it.

Put it this way- people in Taiwan say "xue3" (like snow) instead of "xieh" (like write) for blood. It's not correct, and I always say xieh, which is. People in Taiwan quite often say "nung" instead of "lung" for cold. I always say lung which is correct. Do I go around correcting the Taiwanese for their mistakes? Or do I just go with the flow?

Also, in a test, if ASKED how to pronounce these words, do I change those to nung and xue, or do I try to answer what is standard and correct? I answer the correct version cos I wanna score marks!!