Erhua (儿化）considered standard in Mandarin?

[imron]

As a learner, if adding 儿 makes no difference to the original meaning

I think many people misunderstand erhua. It's not just 'an accent', it acts as a diminutive of sorts and most (all?) of the time it does make a difference to the meaning, or at the very least the nuance of the word in question.

[skylee]

Put it this way- people in Taiwan say "xue3" (like snow) instead of "xieh" (like write) for blood. It's not correct, and I always say xieh, which is.

Not sure if xie3 is always correct. There is also the pronunciation xue4. In my Xiandai Hanyu Cidian, the entry of xue4 takes up 1.5 pages, whereas that of xie3 takes up 11 lines.

There was a lot of discussion on the pronunciations of 血 on this thread -> http://www.chinese-forums.com/index.php?/topic/4521-%e8%a1%80

[Manuel]

Shi Tong, I know I am portraying myself as a whinge, but measure words are another thing that gets me. I guess all languages have their little idiosyncrasies. We, for instance, English has irregular verbs, and I am sure the Chinese will very often wonder why on earth we have articles at all. Likewise, German has three articles so it's even harder to learn.

Certain idiosyncrasies are not optional. If you want to learn Chinese, you are just going to have to go with the flow like you said. However I am (very) surprised you "don't like" simplified Chinese script. Let's face it, simplified script is the lesser of two evils, so what's in it for you? You are just going to spend more time learning to write instead on focusing on more important aspects of the language, and once you know how to write it will not be too practical a method of recording thoughts because it will take you longer to scribble down notes etc. Example 0 vs 零. Also traditional characters are inherently easier to forget because they are more complex. Not a single day goes by without a Chinese person telling me they have forgotten how to write a fairly common word. Luckily we've all got phones now!

[HashiriKata]

I worship simplicity and therefore I would go as far as eradicating the chinese script altogether and make pinyin the official writing system, and I would applaud the Chinese government for making this happen. How wonderful it would be! Erhua, hanzi... yeah very cool, very interesting, very beautiful, etc, whatever, but the language should be as logical as possible as it's just a tool to get the job done, i.e. to communicate thoughts. These are my views as a learner.[/b']

The problem is, you seem to like expressing views without learning much. Try switching over and it may serve you better.

[Manuel]

HashiriKata, I like learning stuff, but I am a practical soul. I like investing time in gaining skils that allow me to reach my goals as quickly as possible. If one had to design and program a computer from scratch just to send a quick email, I bet email would not be very popular. Life is just too short!

But don't get me wrong, I am also learning to write Chinese, just a litle more slowly than the majority of students. I started studying 5 months ago, and in my class everyone can write a good 500 Hanzi except, you guessed it, yours truly. However, I can speak much more fluetly than everybody else in my class, including the japanese students who in theory have it a little easier. Being able to speak is proving very useful in everyday activities. I can always ask people to read things for me when I can't.

I am sure a lot of you have already stumbled upon this very interesting and well-written article: Why Chinese is so damn hard.

Anyway, I do apologize for digressing from the original topic. (sh)

[renzhe]

Why is there so much confusion about erhua, retroflexes and standard Mandarin in general?

Erhua is something typical for northern speech. Some of it is a part of the standard. Much of it isn't.

Retroflexes are typical for northern speech. All of them are a required part of the standard.

On the other hand, nali is southern usage, which is also a part the standard. There are many other examples of this.

Standard Mandarin is not the same as "Beijing accent". People will obviously speak very differently in the streets of Wuxi and Beijing, but neither one is standard. You can also strive to speak like that, and it's OK, but be aware that you're not speaking according to the standard.

[Manuel]

I think I'll go back to study now!

[imron]

I am sure a lot of you have already stumbled upon this very interesting and well-written article: Why Chinese is so damn hard.

About 6 years ago at least

[Shi Tong]

I think many people misunderstand erhua. It's not just 'an accent',

I agree.. though I dont think it really serves a purpose- just like the extra "dian" they say in Taiwan for "yidiandian", doesn't really mean anything, it's just the way it's said!

Not sure if xie3 is always correct. There is also the pronunciation xue4. In my Xiandai Hanyu Cidian, the entry of xue4 takes up 1.5 pages, whereas that of xie3 takes up 11 lines.

There was a lot of discussion on the pronunciations of 血 on this thread -> http://www.chinese-forums.com/index.php?/topic/4521-%e8%a1%80

Interesting! Does it have anything on xue3? (That's the way it's pronounced in Taiwan.)

Shi Tong, I know I am portraying myself as a whinge, but measure words are another thing that gets me. I guess all languages have their little idiosyncrasies. We, for instance, English has irregular verbs, and I am sure the Chinese will very often wonder why on earth we have articles at all. Likewise, German has three articles so it's even harder to learn.

Ooh, no I quite agree.. a complete pain in the proverbial behind, but I suppose they're necessary, just as much as knowing the difference between they're there and their!

Personally I think erhua is more pointless than measure words- since they usually actually have a meaning, but then you could argue that about SOOO many things in a language!

Let's face it, simplified script is the lesser of two evils, so what's in it for you? You are just going to spend more time learning to write instead on focusing on more important aspects of the language, and once you know how to write it will not be too practical a method of recording thoughts because it will take you longer to scribble down notes etc. Example 0 vs 零. Also traditional characters are inherently easier to forget because they are more complex. Not a single day goes by without a Chinese person telling me they have forgotten how to write a fairly common word. Luckily we've all got phones now!

I think from the 50 odd posts I've made so far on the forum, I can already tell I'm very different.

I like traditional Chinese characters because where a lot of them were pictograms in traditional, a lot of them are changed over to make "less sense" to me in Simplified- take the horse which has a single stroke for it's legs as an example, instead of 4 legs in traditional.. makes much more sense to me, so I'm sticking with the traditional.

I think most people use short cuts though too mate-- I've not seen anyone write 零 instead of 0 when they're taking quick notes.. in fact, I even think a lot of Chinese numbers are dying because it's easier to write 1-10 in English!

Why is there so much confusion about erhua, retroflexes and standard Mandarin in general?

I dont know mate, and I agree with you!

[chrix]

I agree.. though I dont think it really serves a purpose- just like the extra "dian" they say in Taiwan for "yidiandian", doesn't really mean anything, it's just the way it's said!

What imron said. Also as renzhe has said (I don't recall somewhere here or in person), it also has delimitative function.

Interesting! Does it have anything on xue3? (That's the way it's pronounced in Taiwan.)

Why don't you just read it ? Also, you should look up 血 in a Taiwanese dictionary if you have the time.

[Shi Tong]

What imron said. Also as renzhe has said (I don't recall somewhere here or in person), it also has delimitative function.

it does make a difference to the meaning, or at the very least the nuance of the word in question.

Oh right.. I'm not sure I understand what you mean. How is "hua hua de" (painter) different from "hua huaer de"? How is "yidianer" different from "yi diandian"?

Also, Chrix, the reason I dont "just read it":conf is because I dont have a Xiandai Hanyu Cidian.

You have to remember that not everyone has one of these!!

Also, you should look up 血 in a Taiwanese dictionary if you have the time.

I'll see if I can find the time.

[chrix]

Oh right.. I'm not sure I understand what you mean. How is "hua hua de" (painter) different from "hua huaer de"? How is "yidianer" different from "yi diandian"?

"delimitative function" means it signals word boundaries and thus helps structure the utterance and allows the listener to follow better. In other languages, stress often has the same function (as does the pitch accent in Japanese).

Also, Chrix, the reason I dont "just read it" is because I dont have a Xiandai Hanyu Cidian.

You have to remember that not everyone has one of these!!

Ah, I thought you were referring to the thread, not the dictionary. But if you haven't, read the thread, AFAIR, all three readings are discussed there. Most dicionaries have xue4 and xie3, but xue3 seems to have become a colloquial variant, and most dictionaries still don't have it. As to how to properly distinguish between the three, let's discuss this in the thread referenced.

[renzhe]

I'm obviously not an expert here, but I've noticed erhua serving at least the following functions:

- diminutive, often used as a sign of affection with people's names

- disambiguation of meaning (one word with erhua, one without)

- register - speech without erhua sounds more formal. Lots of erhua sounds colloquial

How is "yidianer" different from "yi diandian"?

It's different from "yidian", which means "a dot". Erhua changes the meaning here, and if you don't want to use it, you have to modify the phrase by adding another dian.

In Beijing, "hua" is "to paint", while "huar" is a painting. So obviously it affects meaning here too.

"Na" has a different meaning than "nar". You can avoid erhua by saying "nali" instead, but you can't say that erhua doesn't change the meaning.

You can often avoid using erhua, and people in the south often (but not always!) do this because many of them have trouble pronouncing erhua, which doesn't exist in their native dialects.

[imron]

How is "yidianer" different from "yi diandian"?

How is "a little" different from "a bit"? Languages have more than one way to express the same or similar meanings, and for some examples not even native speakers will agree on the specifics in how certain words/terms differ. In this situation, yidianr is probably not the best of examples because even though to me yidianr feels smaller than yidian, the exact amount is not something easy to quantify. There was an interesting post about the use of 儿 on the Beijing Sounds blog that provides an example with a more easily quantifiable difference.

[Shi Tong]

"delimitative function" means it signals word boundaries and thus helps structure the utterance and allows the listener to follow better. In other languages, stress often has the same function (as does the pitch accent in Japanese).

Fair enough, but do you think that erhua really does this?

I mean.. how is yi diandian "less defined" than "yidianer"?

If you're talking about a picture or a painter, then it's clear with relavance weather or not you're talking about a picture or a painter- you would call a picture "yi (ge) hua4" (off subject, but what's the (ge) between one and painting, is it zhang or something??), and a painter "hua huade".

let's discuss this in the thread referenced.

ooh.. ok!

- diminutive, often used as a sign of affection with people's names

The same happens in Taiwan, except they tend to call people "xiao3" instead of adding an er to their name (xiao3 huang2 (for a dog or something), xiao3 liu2 (for someone surnamed liu who is probably the youngest in the house) etc).

- disambiguation of meaning (one word with erhua, one without)

I dont think it's clearer with or without the er. That would suggest that Southeners whose first language was Mandarin cant distinguish between one thing and another because they're missing an er.

It's different from "yidian", which means "a dot". Erhua changes the meaning here, and if you don't want to use it, you have to modify the phrase by adding another dian.

I dont really think it does change the meaning there old chap.. I'll ask the wife, but I think that yidian, yidiandian and yidianer mean exactly the same thing- "a bit (a dot)".

It would concievably mean that the more dian's you add, the less it is (yidian being one dot and yidiandian being two, meaning double that), but IMO, if you want to say something is less than one dot, you have to change the dian to another word.

There's a slang term in Taiwan "yi didi" meaning a tiny bit. Or you can circumlecute by saying "yi xiao yi xiao dian dian" meaning "a little small little small dot dot".. just to show that it's a really small amount.

Jeez.. why is there so many ways to say a bit?!

In Beijing, "hua" is "to paint", while "huar" is a painting. So obviously it affects meaning here too.

Of course, and I know.

However, it doesn't make it clearer or not to the listener or reader, it's all about context.

If I say "ta zai hua hua" in Taiwan, it means "he's painting a painting", if I say "ta zai hua huaer", it doesn't actually make it clearer, it just adds an er on the end.

A painting in Taiwan is called "yi (something.. I asked this just now!!!!) hua", and a painter is either called "yi ge hua hua de" or "hua jia de". If I say "ta zai hua", it STILL means he's painting, so how does it make anything clearer or not?

"Na" has a different meaning than "nar". You can avoid erhua by saying "nali" instead, but you can't say that erhua doesn't change the meaning.

People in Taiwan still say "ta zai na" and sometimes drop the li, but it doesn't really change the meaning does it?

It still means "where are (they)?", nar means where, just like na does.. I really fail to see the difference.

You can often avoid using erhua, and people in the south often (but not always!) do this because many of them have trouble pronouncing erhua, which doesn't exist in their native dialects.

Yeppo!!

Just been reading some of that article, imron (interesting).

tāng 汤 and tāngr 汤儿 simply refer to two different liquids. The former means broth/soup, while the latter is the liquid that comes with your non-soup dishes, something cooked out of the meat or vegetables that you might spoon onto your rice. Sauce / gravy, perhaps, but incidental — not consciously made for the purpose of being sauce by itself.

Interestingly in Taiwan they call the juices/ gravy which comes in stuff like xiaolongbao "tang zhi" (soup sauce).

wǒ yào gē tāngr. wǒ yào hē tāng.

我要搁汤儿。我要喝汤。

Interesting.. In Taiwan I think they'd say "wo yao jia tang zhi", and "wo yao he tang".

西红柿

Does this mean tomato in China?? They call them "fan chieh" in Taiwan

[chrix]

Think about what "word boundaries" means and at what position in a word erhua usually appears....

[Shi Tong]

Chrix, I know what it means, and I agree that it does have that useage, but it doesn't mean to me that it's less clear in a second example.

I dont think hua hua and hua huaer or huajia is less clear- they're just different.

I dont think yidiandian and yidianer are less or more clear, just different.

Do you really think that one is clearer than the other?

One interesting thing that I've noticed is that, being and English man, and not ever curling my tongue, Taiwanese Mandarin really fits in with my natural speaking- so I would never say "car(er)" like an American does, I would say "ca", like the Taiwanese do with their Mandarin.

It could be that my natural ear hears that better because of my natural accent from Britain.

[chrix]

Sure, in one variety it's absent and in the other it's there. But it's nothing conscious anyways, and irrelevant from the learner's perspective as it would take the average learner a lot of practice until they'd even come close to benefiting from this.

But that wasn't why I brought it up, but because some people claimed here erhua wouldn't serve any purpose at all, and that's patently false.

Edited February 9, 2010 at 04:11 PM by chrix

[renzhe]

I have a feeling that you keep arguing just to save face here. There are two issues -- whether you can speak without erhua and be understood, which you can.

The second one is whether erhua (as a part of the standard language) actually serves a purpose, and it clearly does.

If you're talking about a picture or a painter, then it's clear with relavance weather or not you're talking about a picture or a painter- you would call a picture "yi (ge) hua4" (off subject, but what's the (ge) between one and painting, is it zhang or something??), and a painter "hua huade".

Yes, you COULD say this, but you don't have to say it like this.

You can simply say "画儿".

If, and only if, you cannot pronounce "画儿" because your accent is too strong, do you need to start reformulating things to compensate for this.

The fact remains that the 儿 suffix affects the meaning of "画". Even if you refuse to use it.

The same happens in Taiwan, except they tend to call people "xiao3" instead of adding an er to their name

This has nothing to do with Taiwan, this is common in all Chinese communities.

Still, in Mandarin dialects (and in written vernacular!) it is common to add "儿" to a name to make it more intimate. It can be combined with other diminutives, such as "小".

For example, Jin Yong, who was born in Haining and grew up in that region, and later wrote his works in Hong Kong, used the 儿 suffix with names in his Wuxia novels extensively. His mother tongue is not Mandarin, and he is a southerner, yet he still used this suffix to indicate affection.

You can avoid using it if you want to, but the 儿 suffix does have this meaning and you should be aware of it if you hear it.

That would suggest that Southeners whose first language was Mandarin cant distinguish between one thing and another because they're missing an er.

Which Southerners whose first language is Mandarin?

You'll have to be specific.

As far as I know, ALL dialects of Mandarin use erhua to a certain extent. Even Sichuanese (according to wiki, I don't speak it). The usage differs, obviously.

I dont really think it does change the meaning there old chap.

"点" can mean a spot, indicate a point in time, or serve as a name of a stroke in Chinese writing. It can also mean "a little bit".

"点儿" can't mean any of this except "little bit". "三 点儿 钟" doesn't exist. "点儿" is not the name of a stroke in Chinese writing.

Adding "儿" here certainly helps to disambiguate.

The difference between "一点" and "一点儿" is admitedly much smaller. Here it is an issue of register. The second sounds softer to me.

nar means where, just like na does..

No. "那" means "that" or "in that case".

"那儿" means "there". You can use 那里 instead.

But they are still not completely exchangeable. You can answer a compliment politely by saying "哪里,哪里". You can't say "哪儿哪儿", or at least I've never heard it.

You need to get over this prejudice that erhua is just some random tongue rolling that northern people add to their language and that it's completely meaningless and arbitrary.

[renzhe]

Another very obvious example where erhua helps disambiguate: Compare 大伙儿 and 大火.