Erhua (儿化）considered standard in Mandarin?

[imron]

"yi (ge) hua4" (off subject, but what's the (ge) between one and painting, is it zhang or something??),

The measure word you are looking for is 幅, e.g. 一幅画

[chrix]

I would be surprised if 大夥兒 would actually be used in the spoken language in Taiwan. The TW dictionaries though have it with erhua.

[Shi Tong]

I have a feeling that you keep arguing just to save face here. There are two issues -- whether you can speak without erhua and be understood, which you can.

The second one is whether erhua (as a part of the standard language) actually serves a purpose, and it clearly does.

I never said that erhua doesn't serve a purpose, but my point is that it's little purpose.

Taiwanese speakers of Mandarin as their first language can communicate just as clearly, not using erhua (which actually, they do not use at all unless they want to for some strange reason).

I guess what I'm thinking is that a lot of your reponces sound to me like you're saying Mandarin is "better" with erhua, and I'm saying it doesn't matter if you use it or not.

Yes, you COULD say this, but you don't have to say it like this.

You can simply say "画儿".

Yeah, I know, but I'm just saying erhua is not necessary if you dont use it in Taiwan.

If, and only if, you cannot pronounce "画儿"

Well, I can say huaer, but it doesn't sound natural to me because I (and noone in Taiwan) uses it.

You can avoid using it if you want to, but the 儿 suffix does have this meaning and you should be aware of it if you hear it.

Yeah, I didn't know this, but my point would be is that you can imply affection for someone using different words if you want to, and you can include that in the name- like xiaohuang.. you dont HAVE to use the erhua version which implies affection.

Which Southerners whose first language is Mandarin?

Probably 80-95% of all Taiwanese who live in Taipei use Mandarin as their first language and it is officially considered their first language- they tend to call it "guoyu" and refer to Taiwanese as either "taiwan hua", or "daiwan wei" depending on which language you're speaking.

The difference between "一点" and "一点儿" is admitedly much smaller. Here it is an issue of register. The second sounds softer to me.

hehehe.. well yidian sounds much softer to me.

About pronouncing "nali/ nar" etc- put it this way.

People in Taiwan pronounce "naer" as -- in English terms here "na", so they will say "zai na", and the na part will not sound with an er at the end.

It's suggested, but, imagine if an English man said "car" and an American said "car", the pronunication of car would have a strong "er" at the end in the US, and in the UK would be just "ca".

The same thing counts for Taiwan..

So yes, neli/ nali are different words, but they sound very similar in Taiwan.. I would say though that you can easily tell the difference.

大伙儿 and 大火

I know what "big fire/ high heat" is, but I dont know what 大伙儿 is, so, if you enlighten me!?

The measure word you are looking for is 幅, e.g. 一幅画

Ooh.. cool, thanks!! I thought it was tu2 or zhang1 or something, but I knew that I probably didn't know it because I was searching for the word. Now I know!

[renzhe]

Taiwanese speakers of Mandarin as their first language can communicate just as clearly, not using erhua (which actually, they do not use at all unless they want to for some strange reason).

They can communicate fine after merging zh, ch and sh into z, c and s (and I'm aware that not everybody does this).

Foreigners communicate without trouble without tones

You can drop anything you don't like from a language, and you'll still be able to communicate.

I guess what I'm thinking is that a lot of your reponces sound to me like you're saying Mandarin is "better" with erhua, and I'm saying it doesn't matter if you use it or not.

I'm not saying it's better, I'm saying that some erhua in some places is standard, and that you need to use some of it if you want to sound standard. And sounding standard is extremely important in a country with as much dialectal variety as China.

Erhua is an integral part of Mandarin in general and putonghua in particular. You'll run into it on the Mainland, and you'll run into it a lot. You can get away with not learning it if you only ever stay in Taiwan, but as soon as you turn on the TV anywhere in the PRC, you'll be exposed to it.

Advising somebody who wants to learn some Mandarin to use in the Mainland to purposefully ignore erhua and refuse to learn it, even when taught in textbooks, is simply terrible advice.

Nobody is saying that you should sound like a Dongbei miner, this all stems from your lack of exposure to what the Mainland standard actually sounds like.

Probably 80-95% of all Taiwanese who live in Taipei use Mandarin as their first language

Sure, but they live in Taipei and not Guangdong or Shanghai.

It's suggested, but, imagine if an English man said "car" and an American said "car", the pronunication of car would have a strong "er" at the end in the US, and in the UK would be just "ca".

No, it's like saying "paint" instead of "painter". The -er suffix changes the meaning.

This might be an accepted usage in Taiwan today, I don't know, but I've never heard it myself. The word "na" does not mean "there". "nar" and "nali" mean "there".

I know what "big fire/ high heat" is, but I dont know what 大伙儿 is, so, if you enlighten me!?

http://www.nciku.com/search/zh/detail/大伙儿/1302687

Sure, you can avoid using the word, and use something else, but other people will use it.

[Shi Tong]

They can communicate fine after merging zh, ch and sh into z, c and s (and I'm aware that not everybody does this).

So why bring it up? Just to be rude? People in Taiwan also consider this to not be standard Mandarin and call it "Daiwan goyu" (this means "Taiwan Guoyu" pronounced in a Taiwanese accent, where they make a mess of some of the pronunciation).

Foreigners communicate without trouble without tones

You may be able to, but I never drop my tones, I even find it hard to understand someone speaking Chinese without tones.

You can drop anything you don't like from a language, and you'll still be able to communicate.

I fink dis iz nunsuns.

I'm not saying it's better, I'm saying that some erhua in some places is standard, and that you need to use some of it if you want to sound standard. And sounding standard is extremely important in a country with as much dialectal variety as China.

I agree. Where in Taiwan do they teach "non standard" Mandarin?

Erhua is an integral part of Mandarin in general and putonghua in particular. You'll run into it on the Mainland, and you'll run into it a lot. You can get away with not learning it if you only ever stay in Taiwan, but as soon as you turn on the TV anywhere in the PRC, you'll be exposed to it.

I know.

Advising somebody who wants to learn some Mandarin to use in the Mainland to purposefully ignore erhua and refuse to learn it, even when taught in textbooks, is simply terrible advice.

I know, and they also teach it in Taiwan.

Nobody is saying that you should sound like a Dongbei miner, this all stems from your lack of exposure to what the Mainland standard actually sounds like.

I would simply say to that-- If you're going to Dongbei and you're spending all your times with miners there, you might find it hard to understand them if you've learned "standard" Mandarin.

I agree that it's the best thing to learn, though, if you're going to travel widely in China.

Oh, and you ASSUME I haven't have much exposure to a "standard" sound.

Sure, but they live in Taipei and not Guangdong or Shanghai.

So you're saying that Mandarin in Taiwan is not as good as Mandarin in Guangdong or Shanghai.

No, it's like saying "paint" instead of "painter". The -er suffix changes the meaning.

No, it's not. It's to do with the pronunciation and the accent.

If you say "painter" in the UK, you still say "er" at the end, but you dont say "ER" with a curled tongue.

The same rule applies to the way they said "ta zai nar" in Taiwan- they dont say NAER with a curled tongue.

Do you understand?

Sure, you can avoid using the word, and use something else, but other people will use it.

And this is localised, just like it is in Taiwan. People dont say 大伙儿, they say "da jia"; "大家", instead.

So you'll hear "我们大家一起做饭" instead of "我们大伙儿一起做饭".

Can I just say this:

1) I agree that learning standard Mandarin is useful to learn if you intend to spend a lot of time travelling in mainland China, and that even using standard Mandarin you will get into trouble with local words and accents.

2) They teach standard Mandarin in Taiwan as well as anywhere else in China- upon reflection, I would suggest that the OP should probably learn his Mandarin in a more local area than Taiwan, if he's planning on spending most of his time in the mainland, however, I do not agree with learning Mandarin in a place where a strong accent may hinder the learner.

3) My suggestion was simply to help the OP to find a good place, where he will not have trouble with language spoken on the street in comparrison with language spoken in the class room.

4) erhua is, of course, used a lot in the mainland, and there is a standard in the mainland, as it is taught in Taiwan (even if the language on the street uses none).

5) erhua, of course, offers some uses, otherwise it would not be used in the mainland.

6) erhua, in Taiwan, is used sparingly, if at all. This does not mean that Mandarin in Taiwan is a worse form of the language.

7) Saying things like:

They can communicate fine after merging zh, ch and sh into z, c and s

is rude, and suggesting that Taiwanese Mandarin is inferior to what they speak in the Mainland. I can assure you that I was taught very well the difference between zh ch sh and z c s.

Shall I just start saying that American English is inferior to UK English, because it's not "standard" or "where it was invented" or whatever then?

I'm sure I'd get a strong rebuf if I did.

[renzhe]

There is nothing wrong with the Taiwanese standard. It is similar to the Mainland standard, with some notable differences. And just like in the Mainland, there is a variety of accents spoken on Taiwan. Some more standard than others.

But this discussion is a waste of time.

[chrix]

I agree, it's a waste a time, as we seem to be constantly talking past each other (I mean Shi Tong, who on this thread ever said that Taiwan Guoyu without erhua is somehow "bad" or inferior to erhua-filled putonghua?) , but I want to point out one contradiction here. Shi Tong said:

I agree that erhua has no use

and later he said:

I never said that erhua doesn't serve a purpose, but my point is that it's little purpose.

As renzhe said, it might be about saving face....

[Shi Tong]

It seems to me that you're all cherry picking my arguments where basically, you've decided that I want to save face because I've said some things which may seem contradictory.

My point is that both forms of Mandarin are, of course, just as valid as one another.

Where I said "erhua, I agree has no use", then I said "it serves little purpose", can both be pretty much the same thing, and pretty much both true.

Why?

Because some things in all languages serve a very small, almost inconcequential contribution.

Where in China, they may say "大伙儿", in Taiwan they say "大家".

Therefore, of course, here it serves a purpose to differenciate between "da huo" (big fire/ higher heat etc), and "everyone".

In Taiwan, it serves no purpose because people dont use "大伙儿", they use "大家".

There was the other example above where people used "tangr" to describe the juices from something. In Taiwan they say "tang zhi", meaning "soup juice".

So.. my point is that, you can always use different vocabulary in the same context to describe the same thing. Does this mean erhua as no use? Well.. it kind of does, because if you can use the Taiwanese standard, and you dont use erhua, there are a million different ways of saying things and not using it.

That doesn't mean to say that in mainland China, people are wrong for using their erhua methods of saying things, saying dahuoer, to me, doesn't make sense, because it's "everyone", and the Taiwanese way of saying it "big house", everyone, makes more sense, but it's not wrong.

I also think that if you're missing the erhua off the end of some words, it really doesn't make any difference to the meaning, or the understanding. How does "xiaohaier" make more sense than xiaohai or zhaopianer make more sense than zhaopian?

I think you're all being a bit too pedantic. Erhua doesn't have to be used in Mandarin, you can do without it like they do in Taiwan, therefore, you can say it has no use.

Just because they use different vocabulary in some cases in the mainland where they use erhua to describe different things, that's fine, and it does have a use, all I'm saying is that you can speak Mandarin without it.

[chrix]

I agree that renzhe's dahuor example wasn't ideal, but now you're the one cherrypicking arguments. (Also I can't find "tangr" in my dictionary)

The delimitative function served by erhua and qingsheng is largely absent in Taiwan Mandarin, and you won't be able to explain that away so easily.

Yes, there are two standards of Mandarin, and they're equally valid from a linguistic point of view. But politically speaking, which one will be valid in China, putonghua or guoyu? That's what it boils down to for me. The OP in the other thread was NOT travelling to Taiwan...

[renzhe]

The "dahuor" example was an example where erhua changes the meaning of the spoken word. It was an indication that erhua does serve a function. I also provided a number of other examples.

Now that everybody agrees that erhua does serve a function, there is not much to discuss.

I think you're all being a bit too pedantic. Erhua doesn't have to be used in Mandarin, you can do without it like they do in Taiwan, therefore, you can say it has no use.

Isn't it easier to admit that you wrote too fast and corrected your position later?

[chrix]

I meant "dahuor" wasn't that ideal of an example as to my knowledge it is not used in Taiwan. Would be curious to know if it would ever be used erhua-less in Southern China though...

[Ah-Bin]

Renzhe

Which Southerners whose first language is Mandarin?

You'll have to be specific.

As far as I know, ALL dialects of Mandarin use erhua to a certain extent. Even Sichuanese (according to wiki, I don't speak it). The usage differs, obviously.

柳州話 Liuzhou dialect is a variety of Mandarin (官話 guanhua) spoken in Guangxi that has without er-hua. For diminutives they use 仔, just like Cantonese, but pronounce it zae4. I don't think Guilin Mandarin has it either.When Liuzhou people speak putonghua, they don't use it either.

Chrix

Yes, there are two standards of Mandarin, and they're equally valid from a linguistic point of view. But politically speaking, which one will be valid in China, putonghua or guoyu? That's what it boils down to for me. The OP in the other thread was NOT travelling to Taiwan...

There are THREE standards of Mandarin, Putonghua, Guoyu and Huayu (official in Singapore and also spoken in Malaysia, ). As far as I know, Huayu doesn't have er-hua, but it is a national standard taught in schools and used in broadcasting.

[chrix]

Are you certain that there is cooperation between Malaysia and Singapore on a joint standard? This is how it's done for German for instance, with a lot of inter-governmental committees etc. (though this doesn't mean there is only one standard for German, as it is as some Austrians like to call it, a "pluricentric language")

There might also be more standards around in the diaspora, though I'd imagine a lot of diaspora communities follow the BJ or TW standard.

[renzhe]

柳州話 Liuzhou dialect is a variety of Mandarin (官話 guanhua) spoken in Guangxi that has without er-hua. For diminutives they use 仔, just like Cantonese, but pronounce it zae4. I don't think Guilin Mandarin has it either.When Liuzhou people speak putonghua, they don't use it either.

Thank you. That's the sort of information I was interested in.

There are THREE standards of Mandarin, Putonghua, Guoyu and Huayu (official in Singapore and also spoken in Malaysia, ). As far as I know, Huayu doesn't have er-hua, but it is a national standard taught in schools and used in broadcasting.

I was thinking whether I should add Singapore or not.

Is there an official standard that's written down somewhere defining this, or is it an unofficial standard?

I know that Singapore had their own list of simplified characters, but they completely adopted the Mainland simplification some time ago.

[chrix]

Yeah, maybe Ah-Bin can enlighten us on this, but AFAIK Singapore completely adopted the BJ standard because they thought it'd be better for business. How this was done in practice I can't say, as theoretically this would also mean erhua (and it could be that the mass media is slow in adapting)....

[Shi Tong]

I agree that renzhe's dahuor example wasn't ideal, but now you're the one cherrypicking arguments. (Also I can't find "tangr" in my dictionary)

Sorry, that was renzhe's argument against me, that dahuoer was used in the mainland, and that it had a valid use. I agree that in this context it has a valid use. My point is that you can say something else and it will mean the same thing?

I'm not cherry picking arguments is that the only thing argued against me with.

Plus, the "tangr" described was taken from a post earlier which was describing how erhua had a function- apparently in Beijing, tang means "soup" and tangr means "the soup you get out of something, like "xiaolongbao li mian de tang".

Maybe it's not in the dictionary, but it was used as an example of why erhua has a function.

Yes, there are two standards of Mandarin, and they're equally valid from a linguistic point of view. But politically speaking, which one will be valid in China, putonghua or guoyu? That's what it boils down to for me. The OP in the other thread was NOT travelling to Taiwan...

I agree, but we still dont agree on the fact that I think Taiwan's taught Mandarin is taught to foreigners at a Beijing Standard.

To be honest, I even remember my teacher saying the following to all of the students in our class:

"We at wenhua daxueh are teaching Chinese to the Beijing standard, because that's where the language comes from. We dont teach people to only speak and listen to Chinese, we teach them to read it and write it also, because this is fundamental to your learning. In our opinion, you cannot learn to speak and hear if you dont know how Chinese characters function."

This meant that they were using text books and teaching methods which were from Beijing standards and included erhua.

My point was that maybe the OP would benefit from learning this standard of Mandarin in Taiwan where the accent would be closer to Southern Chinese versions of Chinese. I'm not telling him to learn Taiwan guoyu in that I think he should drop the erhua etc- I never said that.

The "dahuor" example was an example where erhua changes the meaning of the spoken word. It was an indication that erhua does serve a function. I also provided a number of other examples.

Now that everybody agrees that erhua does serve a function, there is not much to discuss.

That depends.. I think you dont want to discuss it because I'm angering you for some strange reason.

I agree that erhua serves a function where it's used locally. My point being that not everyone uses erhua and there are places and ways of speaking without it.

The other point being that there are some places where they use to much of it (like the dongbei miner we were talking about earlier.)

My initial intention was to help the OP to find an area to learn Mandarin to a standard where he would also find it easier to pick up, or understand the accent of the people he will be conversing with-- if the OP went to Beijing, he might end up with more erhua than the standard teaches, and find himself having a hard time in the South.

Isn't it easier to admit that you wrote too fast and corrected your position later?

This is assuming that I think I was wrong in the first place.

What I wrote looked like I thought that erhua has no function at all in any circumstances. My point was supposed to be that erhua can be disposed of and replaced easily by other methods of speech. This can also be done without detriment to the language.

I dont think that the Taiwanese have any trouble speaking to each other without erhua, and I dont think their Mandarin is worse off without it, and this is actually why I feel a bit bemused by this- it seems like you all think that Standard Mandarin with the erhua is somehow "better" than Standard Mandarin in Taiwan.

My point is that if you're going to the right school- you WILL BE TAUGHT standard Mandarin, so how is it different? The only thing I can pinpoint is some instances of vocabulary and accent.

[renzhe]

That depends.. I think you dont want to discuss it because I'm angering you for some strange reason.

The strange reason is that I put a lot of effort into writing long posts trying to get to the bottom of things, and then you dismiss me as a Taiwan-hater.

[Shi Tong]

The strange reason is that I put a lot of effort into writing long posts trying to get to the bottom of things, and then you dismiss me as a Taiwan-hater.

No, no, no..

I'm just wondering why you're getting so het up- and you're making comments like;

"People combine zh ch sh with zi ci si".

I think this feels more like a personal view than a factual one.

Maybe part of both of our misunderstandings is that, you may not have been to Taiwan (I'm not sure), and I haven't been at all to China.

The other thing I thought was interesting, and personal, in my view was that you commented that your girlfriend from Shanghai speaks with a standard accent, and would laugh me out of the room if I suggested that speaking with a Shanghai accent was just as valid or some such.

I personally (and I'm not trying to be rude here), feel that your girlfriend is being a bit of a snob. It's a bit like saying that someone from Glasgow in Scotland should try to have a more British English standard way of speaking, just because I cant understand him.

Maybe I should be trying to understand him instead of assuming that his accent is somehow inferior or wrong?

I'm trying hard, as you say, to come to some understanding of erhua in this thread, as you can see, and I'm aware that there are differences. I just feel like every turn I make I am nitpicked on and cherry picked out of- often I write in a steam of conciousness, the same as the way I speak, so, my posts often seem like a discussion with others and myself.

If I slip and happen to write something like "erhua as no use", but what I mean is "erhua can easily be switched with something else", (nd I still think that Mandarin without erhua is just as good and valid), then please dont leap on the words like they're some kind of scripture, otherwise I just feel cornered and pi**ed off.

Oh, and it was yourself that said that you didn't want to discuss it;

Now that everybody agrees that erhua does serve a function, there is not much to discuss.

But why do you not want to discuss erhua, it's uses and functions? Is it because you feel pi**ed off that I think it's pretty useless? Or that I think you can switch it out and get just as good a meaning?

Explain how there is "not much to discuss"? I thought that was the idea of a forum?

[chrix]

Yes, but this discussion has turned into 雞同鴨講, 各執一詞 kind of situation...

I had the same impression as renzhe (not as vehement perhaps) that you did seem to interpret some arguments as anti-Taiwan, where that wasn't really the issue at all.

About your Glasgow example: the reality is that the role of standard may be different in the UK than it is in China, but ultimately I think the standard plays an important role even in the UK. For instance, you wouldn't hear it from their accent that the UK has been led by two Scotsmen in a row...

[renzhe]

you're making comments like

I'm making comments like that to point out that you can drop many aspects of a language and still communicate. You can drop retroflexes and still communicate.

You can also drop tones and communicate.

...THEREFORE....

the fact that you can speak without erhua doesn't mean that erhua has no use. You can also speak without retroflexes, but this doesn't mean that they have no use. You can also speak without tones, but this doesn't mean that they have no use.

It was a generaly comment about retroflexes, not an attempt to ridicule the Taiwanese. If you read around the forum a bit, you will see that I often say that there is a wide variety of accents in Taiwan, ranging from full retroflexes, through soft retroflexes, to not retroflex at all.

But why do you not want to discuss erhua, it's uses and functions?

That's what I've been doing, and what you haven't been doing.

You're been saying that you CAN speak Mandarin without erhua. Everybody agrees about this.

This doesn't mean that it doesn't serve a function if you DO use it, though.