Erhua (儿化）considered standard in Mandarin?

[renzhe]

Speaking of...

The first episode of 痞子英雄, a recent Taiwanese drama, features very standard retroflexes throughout, and even 哪儿 and 快点儿 (the retroflex is spoken, but not written).

This is obviously less than in a Mainland show, but it's hard to argue that one should not learn any erhua, if it shows up even in Taiwanese shows.

[chrix]

renzhe, be careful, it only appears with certain actors, the 老李 guy and the 局長 guy (maybe even the 組長, I don't remember about him) . Some older actors have a lot of erhua, but this doesn't mean that this is representative of Modern Taiwan Mandarin....

[renzhe]

The girl in her mid 20s in the forensic lab just said 这儿 and 待会儿.

My point is, if it appears in TV series and movies, you should know it.

[chrix]

oh oh, I have to watch it again I think, so I can come up with some other rationale to explain it away

But let me say this for the time being: zhèr and daihuir are those "lip service" erhua words, I have seen young Taiwanese people use it (while chatting, not live). These older actors use more words such as "wanr".

I mean it won't be too hard to know these five "lip-service" words, even if you study Mandarin in Taiwan

[Daan]

In 痞子英雄, it's definitely the older actors that are responsible for most of the 兒化. Some words, such as 一会儿 and 这儿, are still used by younger speakers of Taiwan Mandarin. As anecdotal evidence, I'll submit that I heard 一会儿 in conversational speech quite a few times yesterday. However, 兒化 forms such as 事兒, which are used by the older actors in 痞子英雄, are now no longer commonly heard here on Taiwan.

I had a teacher at the MTC who said 詞兒 and 字兒. Having spent a couple of hours with him daily, I can't say 詞 and 字 any more, but Taiwanese people think using the 兒化 here sounds just plain ridiculous.

[Inkfish]

it depends on whom you are speaking to.

Where in China, they may say "大伙儿", in Taiwan they say "大家".

no, in south China, people also say 大家 instead of 大伙儿.

in fact, 儿化音 is only used in north China.

in south China, there is no such pronoucation as 'er' EXECPT for the number '2'

and in Taiwan, there is no such pronouncation even for '2'

in Taiwan 2 equals 饿.

one of my dorm mate is from Shandong and another is from Shanghai. when the one asked another where the bathroom was, he answered, 出门儿左转. and the other said 门在哪里(instead of 门儿在哪儿)

[renzhe]

in south China, there is no such pronoucation as 'er' EXECPT for the number '2'

what about 儿子or 而? 耳?

[Ah-Bin]

I know Singapore uses "international" Mandarin vocabulary as opposed to the vocab restricted purely to within the boundaries of the PRC (and excluding HK and Macao).

Examples:

澳洲 "Australia" PRC 澳大利亞 (many people in the PRC cannot understand the first one, but it's the ordinary word used by all Chinese outside the direct jurisdiction of the CCP)

電腦 "computer" PRC 計算機 (most people say diannao for computer now in the PRC, but the standard word is still encouraged by official usage)

過年 "Chinese New Year" PRC 春節 (this last one is politicised vocab, a bit like 愛人 for "spouse" and 公安 for "police", so naturally it won't go so far in overseas Chinese communities.

As for erhua, I haven't yet seen a Singaporean textbook for Huayu for children, only newspapers. So I can't comment on whether erhua is taught or not, because it's only really used in writing to reflect direct speech (like in children's books). Using it in a newspaper or serious piece of writing (unless quoting someone) would make the text too idiomatic or childish. I'll ask some Chinese-educated S'poreans what they learnt.

The other thing to think about is this obsession with "standard" anything. Chinese is full of non-standard things that you can hear every day, including overuse of "er" or a complete absence of it. You don't have to bother learning it if you don't want to, or (like me) think it sounds stupid, but at least know to understand it. Remember that none of the standards are actually spoken by anyone really, they are artificial invented guidelines for people who want to be on TV or radio, not for ordinary people.

If you were to stick exactly to what the PRC designates as Standard Putonghua, you would miss out on a lot of the words and word usages that everyone knows, but are banned from the media - such as 同志 meaning "gay" instead of "comrade" or some of the derogatory terms for the ruling regime (I'll let you find them out for themselves). It would be a boring world if everyone could only express themselves with what Xinhua dictionaries call Chinese.

[chrix]

澳洲 "Australia" PRC 澳大利亞 (many people in the PRC cannot understand the first one, but it's the ordinary word used by all Chinese outside the direct jurisdiction of the CCP)

電腦 "computer" PRC 計算機 (most people say diannao for computer now in the PRC, but the standard word is still encouraged by official usage)

過年 "Chinese New Year" PRC 春節 (this last one is politicised vocab, a bit like 愛人 for "spouse" and 公安 for "police", so naturally it won't go so far in overseas Chinese communities.

澳洲 is even in my small PRC Xinhua Zidian, so I'd doubt that. Also 春節 is used in Taiwan as well, so I'd doubt it's really that politicised.

But the biggest problem I have with your examples is, you don't really say if they're from an official government list, or just reflect common usage in Singapore...

[renzhe]

澳洲 is Australia, the continent, while 澳大利亚 is the country.

The others are basically synonyms in the PRC, and the usage will depend on the context.

And you are right, standards are one thing and spoken language is often different. Still, it's good to be aware of the standard, because you might want to write something, or talk in a more official setting. Not being aware of the standard is generally not a beneficial thing, nor something one should strive towards.

Furthermore, none of the 过年, 警察, 电脑, or any of the numerous names for a wife are considered incorrect on the Mainland. In fact, all of them are required vocabulary for intermediate-level HSK.

What would be interesting is if there is a Singaporean or Malay document prescribing:

- the use of qingsheng

- the use (and amount) of erhua

- grammatical differences wrt. the other two standards

- etc.

Edited February 15, 2010 at 02:33 AM by renzhe

[wai ming]

As for erhua, I haven't yet seen a Singaporean textbook for Huayu for children, only newspapers.

Several years ago (around 1995), I had a primary school Chinese textbook published by the Singaporean Ministry of Education (it was a prescribed text at my Saturday Chinese school in Melbourne, Australia). It was a grade 3 textbook and consisted of short stories (the grade 1 and 2 textbooks were focused on words/sentences). It had 儿化, but it was marked in smaller font eg 小孩儿 would have appeared as 小孩儿.

What would be interesting is if there is a Singaporean or Malay document prescribing:

- the use of qingsheng

- the use (and amount) of erhua

- grammatical differences wrt. the other two standards

- etc.

I have a "初中华文PMR考试指导" (published in 1993) that has subsections on 轻声 and 儿化（卷舌韵母）in the chapter entitled 汉语拼音.

In theory, then, Chinese-educated Malaysians should at least know how they work, but I am yet to meet one who actually speaks that way (That might be slightly unfair: I think they do use 轻声, but it's not as 'exaggerated' as the PRC standard.)

[Inkfish]

oh yea, 而 and 耳 are the same as 二

speaking of 小孩, i prefer to say 小孩子 when i speak to southern and 小孩兒 to the northerner

[atitarev]

In my observation, Singaporeans speaks Mandarin as taught in textbooks or heard in movies, many of them are made in mainland China but also Taiwan and Hong Kong (Mandarin dubbing). Singaporean Chinese speak a variety of dialects but the number of Mandarin speakers has increased by 10% in 10 years, thanks to "speak Mandarin campaign" and growing contacts with China and immigration.

There are both erhua and qingsheng but not as much as in North China. All the standard words where these features are standard are also used in Singapore, especially if it affects the spelling (儿 is specifically written). 华语 is only a different name for Mandarin in Singapore but the official version is almost identical to 普通话 - phonology and grammar. The features of Singaporean Mandarin you may find different from 普通话 are colloquial and not necessarily included in dictionaries or describe phenomena specific to Singapore (cuisine), the lack of contacts in 1949-1979 caused some differences, which are gradually disappearing. Notably, Chinatown in Singapore is called 牛车水.

My point is (if you disagree), unlike Taiwan they are not trying to be different from China but on the contrary, Putonghua (as used in China) serves as a model of the correct Chinese in Singapore.

Edited February 15, 2010 at 06:00 AM by atitarev

[renzhe]

speaking of 小孩, i prefer to say 小孩子 when i speak to southern and 小孩兒 to the northerner

Both are correct.

However, 小孩 (as heard in Taiwan) is not correct on the Mainland, at least according to my dictionaries. Same goes for 女孩儿 / 女孩子.

[Ah-Bin]

澳洲 is Australia, the continent, while 澳大利亚 is the country.

The others are basically synonyms in the PRC, and the usage will depend on the context.

I was quoting these because they are not the standard terms in the PRC

Also 澳洲 means the country and the continent anywhere outside direct PRC jurisdiction.

I've never heard 春节 in Taiwan, I don't think it's an official ROC term, but I may be wrong. I've always assume that it was a new name invented by the CCP to distance it from the new calendar - but then again the new (western) calendar was adopted by the KMT so I could be wrong.

Furthermore, none of the 过年, 警察, 电脑, or any of the numerous names for a wife are considered incorrect on the Mainland. In fact, all of them are required vocabulary for intermediate-level HSK.

What I was meaning was that 愛人, 公安, and 计算机 are not part of Singapore standard Mandarin. The first two terms were certainly politicised communist terminology, and the "international" terms were only re-introduced to China in the 1980's.

And you are right, standards are one thing and spoken language is often different. Still, it's good to be aware of the standard, because you might want to write something, or talk in a more official setting

If you want to write something, it is probably a bad idea to put er's in to start with unless you are writing direct speech. Otherwise the text will look like it was written by a ten-year-old. As for speaking, I don't think it matters too much so long as you don't muck your tones up. Only a tiny minority of Chinese know the newsreader standard to start with, and most of them won't know (or care) if your drop or add some "er" here or there. If they are northerners they might think you don't use it enough and if they are southerners they might think you are using it too much. No-one will think any better or worse of a foreigner who speaks Mandarin without the exact erhua as written in tests and textbooks, because the exact standard isn't really spoken by ordinary people to start with - or by politicians for that matter.

But the biggest problem I have with your examples is, you don't really say if they're from an official government list, or just reflect common usage in Singapore...

Ah yes, point taken. But not even all English-speaking countries have exhaustive lists of what they consider right and wrong either. Obsession with standard this and standard that to the nth degree is characteristic of contemporary PRC politics.

[Inkfish]

If you want to write something, it is probably a bad idea to put er's in to start with unless you are writing direct speech. Otherwise the text will look like it was written by a ten-year-old.

this reminds me of something.

when i chat with some people from Beijing on IM, they usually say(insert) 這, 那, not 這兒 哪兒, nor 這裡 那裏. I think this is because they basically pronounce 這 as 這兒.

[Shi Tong]

In Taiwan they do indeed pretty much merge sounds that are an er into an e.

That said, some people still say "erzi" etc with a pronounced effort to curl the tongue.

The point is the accent- it's just not as curled at all.. to the point where you dont even need to.

Also, I've found that the Er in Taiwan is pronounced with an English "E" sound at the start, and the Northeners tend to use an English "A", so 二 sounds like "Err" or "eh" (dont know how to describe this sound with Romanised type) in Taiwan and "Arr" in some Northern cases.

[chrix]

Ah yes, point taken. But not even all English-speaking countries have exhaustive lists of what they consider right and wrong either. Obsession with standard this and standard that to the nth degree is characteristic of contemporary PRC politics.

That's a very skewed view of language policy. Any major written language has a standard, and while English doesn't have a central government body, there are other institutions (usually dictionaries and usage books) that are taken as representative of the standard. And you can find the same obsession if something is standard or not, even in English...

[Ah-Bin]

Actually, later I thought I should have rephrased that, with something like "the obsession with getting everyone to speak correctly is related to the obsession with getting everyone to think correctly". I think that applies to most PRC policies on language use.

I also think that it should be obvious that Chinese dictionary makers are far more prescriptive than those of other countries. PRC dictionary makers will actually ignore changes in meaning when they are politically sensitive (like 同志) or simply ignore words that people use on a day-to-day basis like 国语 for Mandarin (or define them as historical usage), purely for political reasons.

Erhua doesn't carry any political baggage itself, but the concept of a single, enforced artificial standard has its roots in political and cultural ideas that have been abandoned by many other countries.

[renzhe]

I also think that it should be obvious that Chinese dictionary makers are far more prescriptive than those of other countries.

Which other countries?

I don't speak too many languages, but I don't find the Chinese dictionaries more conservative or prescriptive than German or Croatian ones.

English is rather the exception in the sense that it is more accepting of slang and new developments. You will encounter a huge number of words in spoken German and Croatian which are not in dictionaries.

同志 for homosexuals is Taiwanese slang. It is, itself, a highly politicised word. I agree that dictionaries should recognise this usage, but you are reaching here.

Erhua doesn't carry any political baggage itself, but the concept of a single, enforced artificial standard has its roots in political and cultural ideas that have been abandoned by many other countries.

Once again, the putonghua standard is extremely similar to the role of Hochdeutsch in Germany, only the penetration of Hochdeutsch is far greater in my experience than that of putonghua.

All the teachers, all the actors, all the politicians, all the radio and TV announcers (with the exception of entertainment shows) in Germany speak Hochdeutsch, although most of them don't have it as a mother tongue.