Historical figures from the Three Kingdoms period

[bhchao]

Which characters from the Three Kingdoms period do you admire the most? And what do you admire in them?

[bhchao]

I'll start off by saying that Cao Cao is my favorite. Because he valued talent and ability over birthright. His humble origins influenced him to value people's skills over their heritage. He recruited rivals from defeated armies to assist him in his campaigns, which showed that he had the potential to be a good administrator of a unified state. I think China during the Three Kingdoms period would have been better off had he lived a little longer and succeeded in incorporating Shu and Wu into his realm.

He was also a scholar and a poet. I have a soft spot for complex, enigmatic (or ruthless) characters like Cao Cao and Nobunaga. Cao Cao was inaccurately portrayed as a villain in the novel.

Liu Bei is overrated in my opinion. First of all, his decision to attack the kingdom of Wu was a foolish move. He ignored the advice of his generals and Zhuge Liang, and decided to crush Wu to avenge Guan Yu.

Cao Cao of course had his own flaws, like being overconfident at Chibi. It's unlikely though that he would have made a fateful decision based on emotion like Liu Bei's.

Liu Bei did select competent advisors and was lucky to have their service considering the mistakes he made. His policies might be perceived as being more benevolent than Cao Cao's. But under the direction of Zhuge Liang, he adopted Legalist policies that caused suffering to peasants.

Edited October 17, 2008 at 04:31 AM by bhchao

[wushijiao]

Hehe..I also voted for Cao Cao. I read the first 70 chapters or so of 三国演义, and i think Cao Cao is the best character (at least in the novel, perhaps with 诸葛亮 as the main exception).

[Willxdiana]

I like Cao Cao and Liu Bei the most, I hold them as the same.

Liu Bei won 30 yellow turbans battle, if you read san guo zhi he won the battle of Xinye where he did the fire attack plan and it was not zhuge liang's idea.

Liu Bei also won Hanzhong with Fa Zheng in the biography San guo zhi. He also won yizhou which took wu and wei a hard time to get until deng ai came.

His military carreer was pretty good until he went to yiling.

Cao Cao feared him and Liu Bei had a lot of chr.

[Luobot]

All the main characters remind me of current or recent politicians. Cao Cao reminds me of a combination of the two New York City mayors who impress me the most: Rudy Giuliani and Michael Bloomberg -- i.e., ruthless efficiency combined with technocratic brilliance. Liu Bei reminds me of Mayor Dinkins: Someone who tries to help everyone and helps no one. The only reason Liu Bei succeeded as far as he did is because of Karl Rove… I mean, Zhuge Liang. The most interesting character is Liu Shan, Liu Bei’s son, who reminds me of GW Bush.

[Willxdiana]

"ruthless efficiency combined with technocratic brilliance."

You got Sun Quan for that, southern admin of brilliance; the people were happy and they alway won defense battles, yet when he grew older he was senile and killed a lot more people.

He also treated Zhang Zhao pretty badly. Liu Bei was cruel too, like the point in the book where a scholar made fun of his bread and he murder his butt .

Of course Cao Cao was the best out of all the ruler. His art of war book and his skill in admin made him one of the best characters.

[Luobot]

"ruthless efficiency combined with technocratic brilliance."

You got Sun Quan for that,

Except that I don't like Sun Quan for cutting off Guan Yu's head. It was ruthless and calculating but unnecessary and not such a brilliant move. It ended the alliance with Shu (until Zhuge Liang somewhat repaired relations), and it didn't cause a war between Wei and Shu, as Sun Quan had expected. If it had caused a war and had either Wei or Shu emerged victorious, then Wu would have fallen next. Wu could not stand on its own against the north without Shu to tip the balance of power. In fact, after Shu eventually fell, Wu was finished.

[Outofin]

Liu Bei is overrated in my opinion.

I won’t say Liu Bei is overrated, he is distorted. Everyone called him a “hero”, but it’s hard to see from the book why.

Cao Cao was a genius with various talents. And he was exceptionally honest. Yes, I like this charismatic person most too. But Liu Bei’s life was even more inspiring. Cao Cao had his bad times, but mostly, his career was smooth and successful. On contrary, Liu Bei was a clear loser when he had even gotten old. Everyone knew his ambition. Cao Cao thought Liu Bei was his only worthy rival. But, maybe he just didn’t get his chance? At the time, would you in doubt? Would Liu Bei himself doubt his ambition and fate? He didn’t. He built a kingdom in his last 16 years.

[张月yuezhang]

In my opinion,most of chinese very admire zhugeliang,because all his record in the book were so wonderfully.everything he dose were anyother human can't to do.just like wonderful foresight,or beat million enemy only use several soldier.he was so clever,have so many stratagems,He could know tomorrow weater only need see the star.and so on.Of course,these story go down now may be has some exaggerate,But,I beleve zhugeliang is a great man,It's ture.

one thing is worth mentioning,That's a place in china,Names"bagua cun"(八卦村），A small village in zhejiang Province,All people in it named zhuge,because they all zhugeliang's descendant,They all very clever too.The building in that village buildup like the Eight Diagrams ,Everyone goin will lose way.This old town has thousands years old,very Charade!!!

我的英语非常不好，所以写这些里面不知道有多少错误，很多诸葛亮的神奇之处我不会表达.我看了＜三国志＞之后，觉得关公的义气，张飞的勇猛，曹操的谋略等等等等　或许很有过人之处，但都不能给我诸葛亮的那种感觉，所以在我眼中，他已经是神，而不是人了．料事如神`,足智多谋,运筹帷幄，决胜千里，高瞻远瞩,未卜先知,雄才大略,能言善辩,奇谋巧计．．．这都是后人对诸葛孔明的评价．

诸葛亮后裔生活的八卦村是个几千年的古镇，非常神秘，全村人姓＂诸葛＂，村子建筑组成一个巨大的八卦图案，进去的人一定迷路，当年日本人多次轰炸和攻打，周围村落都被夷为平地，只有八卦村安然无恙，喜欢八卦村的可以联系我，我发照片给你看，也可以跟我探讨细节．

[Luobot]

A small village in zhejiang Province,All people in it named zhuge,because they all zhugeliang's descendant

This is fascinating news. I don't know when Zhuge Liang found time for having descendants (I must have skipped a very important chapter ). For a story with the word "romance" in its title, there isn't actually all that much romance in it. And although this story has already been told from many angles, I think it would still be interesting if someone where to retell it from the perspective of the wives.

我的英语非常不好

不是。你的英语非常好！ 加油。

[Shi Tong]

eh....

Novel:

1) Liu Bei was a bit of a woos, but a good man.

2) Zhuge Liang was amazing.

3) Guan Yu was amazing.

4) Cao Cao was amazing.

Historically:

1) Liu Bei was actually far more capable than most people give him credit for- in the novel, he is always crying, but historically he took the lead in most strategems for war- Zhuge Liang wasn't really as amazing as a lot of people think he was and wasn't really a leader during Chibi- I think he was only 21 at the time. Zhuge Liang was only given military leadership much later.

2) Cao Cao was as much of a tyrant as Liu Bei, they both put people to the sword constantly. If Cao had taken over China and kicked the rest out, I doubt that China would have seen a period of rest because the Sima's probably would have still tried to vye for power. Also, Cao Cao, historically, and in the novel, if you read closely, was mostly given amazing positions by Xun Yu, who managed to negotiate for him all the best jobs at the start.. it's just a bit clouded by Cao Cao saying "yes, my thoughts exactly".

I think anyone would have been amazing and got into the same position as Cao Cao given Xun Yu's advice, TBH.

[rivercao]

1) Liu Bei was actually far more capable than most people give him credit for- in the novel, he is always crying, but historically he took the lead in most strategems for war- Zhuge Liang wasn't really as amazing as a lot of people think he was and wasn't really a leader during Chibi- I think he was only 21 at the time. Zhuge Liang was only given military leadership much later.

2) Cao Cao was as much of a tyrant as Liu Bei, they both put people to the sword constantly. If Cao had taken over China and kicked the rest out, I doubt that China would have seen a period of rest because the Sima's probably would have still tried to vye for power. Also, Cao Cao, historically, and in the novel, if you read closely, was mostly given amazing positions by Xun Yu, who managed to negotiate for him all the best jobs at the start.. it's just a bit clouded by Cao Cao saying "yes, my thoughts exactly".

Liubei's military ability is weak, how many times had his army faced real big battles? I can't remember. Zhu geliang is totally overrated, I agree with you, he is a great politican, but he is not good at military. Chairman Mao had pionted out his two big mistakes: 1. Using Guanyu to guard Jingzhou, Guanyu lost Jingzhou and was killed by Sunquan due to his pride; 2, Using Masu to guard Jieting, Jieting was a very important place, but Masu use very bad strategy to guard it and finally lost it, and he was also killed by Zhugeliang.

One mistake in your post is, during Chibi War(208 A.C.), Zhugeliang(born 181 A.C.) was 27, not 21, it was the first year when he began his political life.

Caocao was awesome, Xunyu was very smart, he made lots of decisions that is vital for Caocao, the most important one is "to command in name of the emperor", another big advantage made by Xunyu is he referred Guojia to Caocao, and with Guojia's help, Caocao defeated Yuanshao in Guandu War, then became the top warlord in North China.

[Shi Tong]

Hello!

27.. I couldn't make my mind up.. 21 or 27. tut to me.

Liu Bei's military wasn't that weak. He did forge a corner for himself in Jing Zhou while Sun Quan was (as usual) making his mind up about Chi Bi, then he also took over Shuguo with great alacrity.

You have to admit that Liu Bei was basically forced to move a lot, where Sun Quan and Cao Cao had their power based in one place, which they could work upon. I think they had it easier.

Zhuge Liang was also a great inventor. I think he was a good (ish) strategist, but a lot of his tricks (like the empty city) were actually attributed to him, despite the fact that he never really "did" them.

While I agree that Guo Jia was potentially great, if you actually look at the advice he afforded Cao Cao, it wasn't enough- his early death saw to that, but IMO, Xun Yu was his most important adviser by a long, long way- I think his advice is hard to follow when you're reading SGYY because it's so muddied by other issues and other characters.

Dont make the mistake of overpraising Cao Cao though- he was a viscious man who made a massive mistake at Chi Bi (probably the biggest war mistake in the whole of that period). Just because you "know" now that Liu Bei wasn't just a hero from reading more than just SGYY, doesn't mean that Cao Cao is now a saint.

[rivercao]

My judgment was based on San Guo Zhi, not SGYY. In fact, Cao Cao was always expanding his territory, but Liu Bei was running all the way, till he got Shu. So in terms of military, Liu Bei group was average and Cao Cao was excellent. Of course, they almost had the same starting level, so it's fair to say Cao Cao >>>>> Liu Bei.

[Shi Tong]

My judgment was based on San Guo Zhi, not SGYY. In fact, Cao Cao was always expanding his territory, but Liu Bei was running all the way, till he got Shu. So in terms of military, Liu Bei group was average and Cao Cao was excellent. Of course, they almost had the same starting level, so it's fair to say Cao Cao >>>>> Liu Bei.

Cao Cao was lucky to get Xun Yu, and Liu Bei was stuck with his two "brothers".. basically two body guards. He struggled mainly because he lacked guidance, not because he didn't have the ability.

It's a bit like saying "my Chinese is better than yours", but when you compare the two people- they basically had the same basic ability, but one of them had an amazing teacher.

So yeah, while I agree- Cao Cao >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Liu Bei, I dont think this means Cao Cao was >>>>>>>>> a better person, or more able, or smarter. I think he was in the right place at the right time with the right advice.. good for him that he took it.. but what did Liu Bei have... (apart from two body guards?)

[rivercao]

你的回答笑死我了...

Hhahaha...sounds like Liu Bei had kept two dogs to gurad himself.

Cao Cao was better at finding talent and using talent, admit or not...

You can say its all about "luckiness", but I think it was the caliber that decided the "luckiness", Liu Bei was a good runner, and timing judger, but he had no insight on expanding. He's not that caliber.

Zhu Ge Liang also made big mistakes on personnel, so it's not coincidental that two leaders of Shu were lack of insight of using people, it's just people was apt to find the same kind of person.

[Shi Tong]

你的回答笑死我了

两只老虎, 两只老虎, 跑得快, 跑得快...

:lol:

Erm.. yes, I agree that Cao Cao did find and retain a lot of really important and talented generals and advisers.. he surrounded himself with the right people..

I ask you though.. do you think Liu Bei would have been in a different position if Xun Yu had advised him, and Zhang Liao had seen this as a great thing and joined with his old friend Guan Yu? Then what would have happened if Guo Jia had joined with Liu Bei, and the same set of events were "given" to Liu Bei as Cao Cao was "given" after Xun Yu advised him from the beginning?

I suppose the problem is that we'll never really know who could have changed what with the right people.. so.. yeah, Cao Cao >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Liu Bei, and yes, he was a good leader, but IMO, I think a few other people could have been taken Cao Cao's place and been able to make a good stab at a kingdom.

Dont forget that Cao Cao really fowled up at Chibi, IMO, and it showed to me what a fool he could be (as well as amazing...)

[rivercao]

I ask you though.. do you think Liu Bei would have been in a different position if Xun Yu had advised him, and Zhang Liao had seen this as a great thing and joined with his old friend Guan Yu? Then what would have happened if Guo Jia had joined with Liu Bei, and the same set of events were "given" to Liu Bei as Cao Cao was "given" after Xun Yu advised him from the beginning?

You are gorgeous man, you know San Guo too well.

I can just reclaim that people will find the right leader, Cao Cao was a brave and tactful leader, so his consultant(?is this term right) and generals had the same personalities. But Liu Bei, I don't know if he is lack of a sense of safety, he had so many bodyguards and moved from one place to another, he avioded the conflict and found comfort, the only battle he started was Yi Lin Battle, and it became Shu's nightmare. Can I say he is a loser? He's a leader though.

[Shi Tong]

You are gorgeous man, you know San Guo too well.

:lol: You should read my posts on the-scholars.com.. I think I had a couple of thousand posts.

Of course, when all is said and done, events happened the way they did. If this was for a reason or not, I dont know, and noone can tell what would have happened in slightly different circumstances.

All I can say is that Cao Cao, lucky or not, certainly hit a seam and kept pace better than the rest.

Liu Bei ran from struggles because he lacked the coordination that a good adviser could have given him, something he lacked completely (bar the Xu Shu incident) before he had Zhuge Liang.

It does show me how Cao Cao is human when he attacked at Chi Bi and lost so badly, however, and it's something I always consider when I read 3k or talk about it.. I always also consider that it is called 3k for a reason- and that's because none of the leaders were an outright "winner".

So yeah, Cao Cao did "win", but, the others also didn't technically lose. That's what makes 3k so facinating.

[JonBI]

According to the editor of the common version of the novel, Mao Zonggang, who essentially rewrote most of it, and reshaped the style, the novel is centered around three characters;

Cao Cao,

Guan Yu,

Zhuge Liang.

Of course, Liu Bei is boring, since he is edited from the Luo Guanzhong version to be purely an embodiment of Ren, therefore he is boring as hell. Cao Cao seems the best character, and is seriously the most historically relevant, as the real Cao Cao was a very complex, and completely brilliant person. Also, Luo Guanzhong's Cao Cao is a lot more rounded, though Mao Zonggang's is a lot more fronted in the narrative.

Historically though, definately Cao Cao, or Cao Zhi, since Cao Zhi was a great poet.