Chinese pregnancy beliefs

[gato]

Ok. Here is a list culled from Baidu. Why don't you try to discuss on the basis of these practices.

http://zhidao.baidu.com/question/6345217.html?fr=qrl3

- No cutting of nails

- No pulling of eyebrows

- No use of cold water to wash

- No use of bath lotions

- No use of toothpaste

- No eating of fruits or cold food

- No watching of TV

- No use of computers

- Eating only of freshly cooked food

http://zhidao.baidu.com/question/34655584.html?si=4

- No combing or washing of hair

- No bathing

[roddy]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lying-in is the direct link, get round the block as you will.

[muyongshi]

Side note on the proxified link...if I clicked on the link in my notification email it went through but if I clicked on the one in the forums I got a 404 url not found message....

Thanks gato for the list...

[studentyoung]

Never heard of it and in fact one of my best friends just had her second baby (and by the way she is a foreigner living in China so she has the same conditions as other Chinese people) and her "recovery period" was about a week long. During that week she still did many routine things just required more sleep. For the other 3 weeks of the first month she still required more sleep but was back to her normal life.

How long has she been living in China? I wonder if she grew up here and has similar diet like the local people. Does she suffer from anemia (贫血) like a lot of Chinese women do, especially iron-deficiency anemia (缺铁性贫血) during their pregnancy?

资料表明我国约1/3的未孕未哺乳妇女贫血,而哺乳及孕妇近一半贫血。我国育龄妇女的贫血情况是比较突出的,哺乳母亲及孕妇的贫血情况较未孕未哺乳妇女更为严重。孕妇贫血患病率与孕周关系密切。城市孕妇13周前贫血患病率为16.4%,孕28-37周为高峰,贫血患病率41.4%,但孕37周下降为32%。资料提示,孕妇妊娠13周后,尤28周后要增加铁剂的补充,矫治孕妇贫血。

http://cache.baidu.com/c?word=%CE%D2%B9%FA%3B%B8%BE%C5%AE%3B%C6%B6%D1%AA&url=http%3A//www%2Exmnn%2Ecn/hxwjkpd/blyr/ychl/200708/t20070807%5F279721%2Ehtm&p=866ac54ad4911cfc57e7ce251e&user=baidu#baidusnap1

That is only one aspect of this entire thing. and 中国有中国的特点 is not a sufficient answer to justify away all the non-scientific practices.

I feel sorry for you don’t understand what is called 中国有中国的特点.

Never heard of it and in fact one of my best friends just had her second baby (and by the way she is a foreigner living in China so she has the same conditions as other Chinese people) and her "recovery period" was about a week long. During that week she still did many routine things just required more sleep. For the other 3 weeks of the first month she still required more sleep but was back to her normal life.

I also wonder if your example above is a scientific way to prove there is no difference between western women and Chinese women, so Chinese women don't need to 坐月子.

Thanks!

[muyongshi]

How long has she been living in China? I wonder if she grew up here and has similar diet like the local people. Does she suffer from anemia (贫血) like a lot of Chinese women do, especially iron-deficiency anemia (缺铁性贫血) during their pregnancy?

She did not grow up here but does have a similar diet to the locals not to mention that somewhere in the range of 60% of women worldwide suffer from iron deficiency when not pregnant. That number shoots up to I believe around 90% when pregnant. It's hard to be pregnant (not that I can speak from experience) and it takes it's toll on women not just in China

I feel sorry for you don’t understand what is called 中国有中国的特点.

How is it that I am not understanding it? If we were discussing a cultural issue this would be a relevant answer but as it is being said there is reasons behind these practices, scientific reasons, it then is not a sufficient answer.

Nobody once again is denying that differences exist, the question is whether or not those differences are to the degree of 坐月子 and honestly everyone in the list that Gato has posted for us I do not think have a solid scientific base.

I can understand not using cold water to bathe as that is just uncomfortable and heated water will have less germs and other stuff in it due to the heating process but the rest do not follow logical reasoning.

[gougou]

but the rest do not follow logical reasoning.

Neither does acupuncture, according to Western scientists; still, it works (also according to Western scientists).

[studentyoung]

Nobody once again is denying that differences exist, the question is whether or not those differences are to the degree of 坐月子 and honestly everyone in the list that Gato has posted for us I do not think have a solid scientific base.

- No cutting of nails

- No pulling of eyebrows

- No use of cold water to wash

- No use of bath lotions

- No use of toothpaste

- No eating of fruits or cold food

- No watching of TV

- No use of computers

- Eating only of freshly cooked food

OK, just check them out one by one.

“No cutting of nails” and “No pulling eyebrows” are two things I first heard of. My friends during 坐月子still cut their nails by themselves, though I don't know whether they pulled their eyebrows. But I think pulling eyebrows are not so suitable to practice even in normal days, less say just after having a baby, because the skin around the eyes is very thin and easily to get infected.

"No use of cold water to wash." Well, isn’t it easy to understand that the immune system of a woman after having a baby can’t work well as normal days? What’s more, I haven’t hear any gynecologist advises their patients to use cold water when they are in their period, less say after having a baby.

"No use of bath lotions". Those common bath lotions are usually alkaline, which is really not suitable for a woman just having a baby to clean her body, because it might even destroy the acidic environment in vagina, which can create some natural protection for vagina, and make the wound in vagina take even longer time to heal.

"No use of toothpaste." I haven’t heard of it before. I just know that “no use of cold water to brush teeth”.

"No eating of fruits or cold food"

忌食

寒凉蔬果，如西瓜、木瓜、葡萄柚、柚子、梨子、杨桃、橘子、蕃茄、香瓜、哈密瓜等。

宜食

荔枝、龙眼、苹果、草莓、樱桃、葡萄。

http://zhidao.baidu.com/question/6345217.html?fr=qrl3

So it is not “no eating of fruits”, but pick up the right fruits to eat. As for cold food, I haven’t heard of any gynecologist say a woman after having a baby is suitable to have cold food. First, cold food is not very easy to digest. Second it might cause a indigestion even in a normal healthy man, less say a woman after having a baby.

"No watching of TV" and "No use of computers". It is the problem of radiation. The original description is a bit odd. If I say “no watching of TV and no use of computers as long as usual”, it might be easier to understand.

"Eating only of freshly cooked food." Why? Isn’t it just the right food (i.e. good for health) for a woman after having a baby? Can anyone tell me why it is considered as non-scientific?

"No combing or washing of hair." and "No bathing" These are the measure to protect them from getting a cold. My friend still combed her hair daily and washed her hair with hot water when air-conditioner worked well and no wind would blow in the bath directly on her body. As for those who can’t take a bath at that time, they can still use hot towel to clean their body.

OK, what else?

Thanks!

[Lu]

But I think pulling eyebrows are not so suitable to practice even in normal days, less say just after having a baby, because the skin around the eyes is very thin and easily to get infected.

I can reassure you on that one. I've been plucking my eyebrows for years and years and never had an infection there. (Knock on wood.) In fact, I don't recall ever hearing a friend complain about such a thing, or even ever seeing a women with an infection by her eyebrow caused by plucking it.

[shanghaikai]

中国有中国的特点 is the equivalent of saying "I'm special because I'm special." It is not an answer, it is a way to avoid admitting that you have no answer; it is an excuse.

[Lu]

"No use of bath lotions". Those common bath lotions are usually alkaline, which is really not suitable for a woman just having a baby to clean her body, because it might even destroy the acidic environment in vagina (...).

This explanation doesn't really make sense. Using bath lotions or soap doesn't necessarily mean that the woman in question is washing her vagina with it, she can wash the rest of her body. As far as I know, it is never a good idea to wash one's vagina with soap, nevermind if one just had a baby or not.

"No combing or washing of hair." and "No bathing" These are the measure to protect them from getting a cold.

How does combing one's hair lead to a cold?

"No watching of TV" and "No use of computers". It is the problem of radiation.

Non-scientific, afaik all this radiation stuff has never been proven. And if it is a matter of radiation, is the woman allowed to use a cell phone? Or did they just not update the list that far?

[muyongshi]

http://www.babyandpregnancy.co.uk/FoodstoEatAfterTheBirth.html

So it is not “no eating of fruits”, but pick up the right fruits to eat. As for cold food, I haven’t heard of any gynecologist say a woman after having a baby is suitable to have cold food. First, cold food is not very easy to digest. Second it might cause a indigestion even in a normal healthy man, less say a woman after having a baby.

Let's see...no where does it say anything about cold foods...

Where did you hear that cold food is not easy to digest? I have never gotten indigestion from eating something cold!

"Eating only of freshly cooked food." Why? Isn’t it just the right food (i.e. good for health) for a woman after having a baby? Can anyone tell me why it is considered as non-scientific?

This is more just about eating right than anything else and it has the same application whether male or female. We all need to eat healthy.

"No combing or washing of hair." and "No bathing" These are the measure to protect them from getting a cold.

Didn't anyone ever mention to you that getting wet does not lead to a cold, and being cold due to air temperature does not lead to a cold? It's an old wive's tale (no pun intended)

Basically after all these posts we are left with two things that need to be done after giving birth... lots of rest and eating right. Nothing else has stood up so far. Leading me to see that 坐月子 is an outdated practice with no scientific base. Especially not in today's modern society. Now if you would like to tell me that it is cultural and not scientific I will happily concede on that point.

Oh and another thought that just came...we bathe to keep clean and git rid of germ carry grit and what not. So if someone is used to showering and then they do not aren't they more likely to get sick as a result?

[adrianlondon]

being cold due to air temperature does not lead to a cold

Things are never black and white. Cold air reduces the efficiency of the nose's ability to filter out dirt and germs making it easier to catch a cold. Being cold can also cause your body to spend more energy that it would like trying to keep you warm, which means it has less to fight any infection you may already have.

[muyongshi]

Cold air reduces the efficiency of the nose's ability to filter out dirt and germs making it easier to catch a cold. Being cold can also cause your body to spend more energy that it would like trying to keep you warm, which means it has less to fight any infection you may already have.

Yes it help with other contributing factors increasing the likilehood of catching a cold but here is where we must look at the society we live in (even the majority of Chinese). I do not know many people (unless they are outdoors in the winter) are easily chilled and have no one of counteracting it.

This is where I could accept a difference if it was between country side and city. Countryside poor farmers are definitely more prone to this type of thing but very few (very few meaning there are always exceptions) need to subject themselves to these things for fear of being cold.

[adrianlondon]

You're more likely to catch a cold if you're in close proximity to lots of people, so that would make cities much worse places than the countryside.

Since I started cycling to work, around 4 years ago, I hardly ever get ill. When I used to take the tube (note: this is what Londoners call the subway/underground/metro) I caught colds much more frequently. Partly no doubt due to the extra exercise, but mainly cos I'm not standing next to ill people!

[muyongshi]

Well you're more likely to catch a cold by being in enclosed spaces with lots people that has a high frequency of people touching things so yes buses and rail are pits for disease (wonderful thought I know). But you can't say cities because it's certain parts of the cities, if you stay at home or walk a lot then you don't have to worry about it.

But back to the main point here, you do not catch a cold by being cold from coming your hair or showering.

So maybe a better rule for this whole thing would be to say stay warm (no rules about how just so long as your comfortable) and avoid crowds of people and fest pools of disease. I think that would solve it...

[jonaspony]

Can anyone tell me from a impartial perspective if there is any really use in modern day society for this practice? I would think if there was western medicine would have something to say about it...

Muyongshi, I know you called the debate, but is it going to just be about guessing what your idea of an impartial perspective might be? There is so much Western medicine can't explain, and so much it has explained that was later refuted, and so much that it refuses to accept out of protection to the industry. Western medicine is relatively young, and can't be expected to 'know everything'.

There are many aspects of Western childbirth that are cultural, not scientific. I know that is off-topic, but you need to see that your assumptions in asking the question are themselves culturally based.

Didn't anyone ever mention to you that getting wet does not lead to a cold, and being cold due to air temperature does not lead to a cold?

I know that if I wash my hair on a windy day, warm or cold, I am highly likely to get a cold. Having known this from observing myself, I act accordingly and go greasy-headed during windy periods. And I more readily accept TCM when it talks about these phenomena. Of course, I haven't much chance to repeatedly observe childbirth, so I would rely on the broader, deeper, historically longer experience of TCM practitioners for advice.

Studentyoung seems well versed in TCM, and I think to discount his "impartial perspective" (here I am quoting, not suggesting that his opinion is not impartial) on the basis that it doesn't sound like the kind of thing science could explain - your partial perspective - is not practical.

I understand that his explanation has not satisfied your curiousity (I hope you get a satisfactory answer). Just reminding you that the idea of knowledge is itself cultural.

[studentyoung]

@ Lu

I can reassure you on that one. I've been plucking my eyebrows for years and years and never had an infection there. (Knock on wood.) In fact, I don't recall ever hearing a friend complain about such a thing, or even ever seeing a women with an infection by her eyebrow caused by plucking it.

You and your friend don’t have this problem don’t mean others don’t have this problem, especially when their immunity is declined temporarily. I wonder if your friend is an oculist or if you are an oculist working in eye hospital. I also wonder if your words should be considered as scientific or proven in a scientific way.

How does combing one's hair lead to a cold?

When someone is tired, weak and lost a lot of water in her body (especially mainly sweat), the electrolytes in her body are not in common level, and her pores are usually open. At this time, combing her hair might lead a cold, if she isn’t doing it when air-conditioner is open. I can give you an example. Someone who just finished a long time running should not rest in a cool room at once, or he might get a cold. Surely you won’t shout out loud, “How does coming in an air-conditioning room lead to a cold?” When we say “no combing one’s hair”, it mainly points at those who just right after having her baby.

Non-scientific, afaik all this radiation stuff has never been proven.

Yes, it is never been proven. But can you guarantee there is no such radiation and no harmful effect on human being, especially a lying-in woman and her new born baby? Can’t she take precautions just because she's not so sure on something which might hurt her?

And if it is a matter of radiation, is the woman allowed to use a cell phone? Or did they just not update the list that far?

Rightly so! we don’t advice a lying-in woman to use a cell phone for a long time. Hope you might understand that a lying-in woman and her new born baby need to be cared in a special way, because they are rather vulnerable in some special days.

This explanation doesn't really make sense. Using bath lotions or soap doesn't necessarily mean that the woman in question is washing her vagina with it, she can wash the rest of her body. As far as I know, it is never a good idea to wash one's vagina with soap, nevermind if one just had a baby or not.

What if I tell you most of them will like to use soap and bath lotions to wash their vagina in order to keep so-call “clean”. What’s more, the skin on nipples in those days can’t stand soap or alkali bath lotions, or it might get dry, rhagadia and bleeding which can causes hurt and breasting problems.

@ muyongshi

Where did you hear that cold food is not easy to digest? I have never gotten indigestion from eating something cold!

Go and consult a doctor before you draw a conclusion.

Basically after all these posts we are left with two things that need to be done after giving birth... lots of rest and eating right. Nothing else has stood up so far. Leading me to see that 坐月子 is an outdated practice with no scientific base. Especially not in today's modern society. Now if you would like to tell me that it is cultural and not scientific I will happily concede on that point.

Basically after all these post, leading me to see that someone can only fix your eyes on so-call today’s modern society. They simply don't understand the world is so big, which is beyond the so-call today’s modern society. I don’t know what is outdate or update, but I just pay attention to whether it is suitable, workable and practicable.

Oh and another thought that just came...we bathe to keep clean and git rid of germ carry grit and what not. So if someone is used to showering and then they do not aren't they more likely to get sick as a result?

That might explain that why there so many people suffer from asthma (哮喘), extreme heavy food allergy(严重食物过敏), lups vulgaris（红斑狼疮）, eczema(湿疹) and other kinds of autoimmune diseases (自身免疫系统疾病) in those “clean” western counties.

@jonaspony

Studentyoung seems well versed in TCM, and I think to discount his "impartial perspective" (here I am quoting, not suggesting that his opinion is not impartial) on the basis that it doesn't sound like the kind of thing science could explain - your partial perspective - is not practical.

Sorry, but I am a girl.

Thanks!

[jonaspony]

oops, sorry Ms Studentyoung

BTW: if that's all the recgnition I get for taking your side in a debate... it may well be the last time!

[muyongshi]

That might explain that why there so many people suffer from asthma (哮喘), extreme heavy food allergy(严重食物过敏), lups vulgaris（红斑狼疮）, eczema(湿疹) and other kinds of autoimmune diseases (自身免疫系统疾病) in those “clean” western counties.

Actually that comes from over use of antibacterial agents... not from bathing. Now if a person only uses antibacterial soap to wash then yes maybe. But I have bathed everyday of my life (except or course when I was a naught child and when I revisit those days...camping, hunting, etc.) and do not suffer from anyone of those aforementioned items and I know maybe people who are the same.

Over sterilization and bathing are separate issues.

There is so much Western medicine can't explain, and so much it has explained that was later refuted, and so much that it refuses to accept out of protection to the industry. Western medicine is relatively young, and can't be expected to 'know everything'.

There are many aspects of Western childbirth that are cultural, not scientific. I know that is off-topic, but you need to see that your assumptions in asking the question are themselves culturally based.

Sorry don't know much about western methods of birthing... I'm not expecting western medicine to know everything and I do believe that TCM is legitimate in the fact that it has had thousands of years of development, however TCM is also based on many superstitions. I believe that western medicine and TCM can quite readily coincide together but they must be mutually verifiable. This is common science. Not just one source but multiple independent sources that reach the same conclusion.

And another thing about TCM is that despite it's long history, China has changed drastically in the last 200 let alone 100 years. So my feeling is that TCM must be reevaluated and measured in today's society not taking for granted things past. If it still is able to hold up then the more power to it, but let us never take this for granted. I am very practical and I see more placebo affect and superstition in the way things are done than fact. Yes it works, not saying that but I want it to be proven time and time again. (and yes I hold this standard for western medicine). I can't tell you the last time I went to the doctor when I got sick... (went once to test for diabetes but not because i was sick)

I understand that [(edit) her] explanation has not satisfied your curiousity (I hope you get a satisfactory answer). Just reminding you that the idea of knowledge is itself cultural.

Impartial is a hard thing to define but what I was hoping for is someone who has had direct experience in both being able to verify (not based on this is what I believe or what my mother told) the legitimacy of these claims.

I am hoping for an answer that is able to look at all of these (hopefully as well ruling out placebo affects) and explain to me in a logical rational way why it works. And in reference to an earlier thing about acupuncture... I find these two are very unrelated. Same for cupping and honestly I still see placebo effect. I see it in western medicine as well. I think the body's power to heal itself is amazing and sometimes we just thing that something will help and so our body begins to work. I'm a skeptic about everything and so maybe I will not get a reasonable answer ever. I'm just trying to understand it a little bit better...

I appreciate everyone's input and especially studentyoung's perspective. Thank you all!

[studentyoung]

I am hoping for an answer that is able to look at all of these (hopefully as well ruling out placebo affects) and explain to me in a logical rational way why it works.

Before you can get an answer, I hope you can pay attention to your logic at first. I will show you an example.

Where did you hear that cold food is not easy to digest? I have never gotten indigestion from eating something cold!

In your words, your logic seems to tell “I don’t have this problem, so others don’t.” I'm sorry but if you don’t take others’ shoes, you might hardly understand what their life can be.

Thanks!