Passage re Fang Xiaoru

[Altair]

<>明刻方孝孺像<> 方孝孺，明建文时官至翰林侍讲学士，后世称正学先生。建文四年（1402）永乐即位后被灭以“十族”。

<>Statue of Fang Xiaoru Carved in Ming Dynasty<> Fang Xiaoru was promoted to the official post of “Shijiangxueshi” of the Imperial Academy in Jianwen reign of Ming dynasty, and called Mr.Zhengxue by later generations. He suffered the calamity of the extermination of the ten degrees of kingship when Yongle reign started in 1402.

方孝孺(1357～1402)是明代前期一位非常特殊的人物，凭着他无与伦比的涵养和学识，及其鹤立不群的人格力量，誉满士林，被时人推崇为“天下读书种子”。不幸的是，“天”不佑斯人。朱元璋的儿子朱棣——即后来的永乐皇帝，凭藉着他老子给他的“积蓄”，和他自身的雄才大略，在建文元年(1399)高举起“靖难”大旗，矛头直指他的侄儿建文皇帝。到了建文四年(1402)六月，京师被破，建文焚死，方孝孺也成了朱棣的阶下囚。在攻破京师以前，朱棣的谋士姚广孝深知方孝孺的秉性——他绝不会背主屈膝，于是专门请求朱棣，说：“城下之日，彼必不降，幸勿杀之。杀孝孺，天下读书种子绝矣！”大权在握的朱棣，当然不会放过孝孺，但又不想招致太直接的恶名，也不致自己的谋士太过难堪，便想出了一个绝招——命孝孺为自已的登位大典草诏。表面看，他给子孝孺最大的面子和荣耀，而在实质上，却是把刀直接架在孝孺的“人格”上，这点彼此都是心知肚明的。当孝孺被召至金殿时，朱棣有模有样的“降褐迎劳”，结果被孝孺骂了个狗血喷头。这当然给了朱棣动刀的充分理由：他首先要制止孝孺的谩骂，命武士用刀割碎孝孺的嘴，从两腮一直剖至两耳，孝孺还是骂不绝口，结果被磔死于聚宝门外。孝孺的妻子戚族乃至门生都成了这一事件的牺牲品，“宗族坐死者八百七十三人”，这就是封建社会历史上骇人听闻的“灭十族”事件。人们称“自古节义之盛，无过此一时者。”

Thanks to the miracle of Wenlin, I am able to understand most of this passage. I have an interest in the subject matter, but decided to post here, because I have a bunch of grammatical questions. I may post about the substance on the history forum.

Could someone explain the highlighted portions? Below are some details about my problems with the passage.

1. 鹤立 and 不群 both make sense to me, but not 鹤立不群的 together.

2. 誉满 would seem meaningful, but not 誉满.

3. (他老子给他的 "积蓄")? Does this mean: "the resources his dad had saved up for him"?

4. (矛头直指)? Who is doing what to whom here?

5. (城下之日，彼必不降，幸勿杀之。杀孝孺，天下读书种子绝矣)? What is 城下之日 and what does the rest of this sentence mean. Each of the pieces makes sense, but I am having difficulty putting it together.

6. (不致自己的谋士太过难堪) How can this be translated?

7. (表面看，他给子孝孺最大的面子和荣耀) What does the first 子 mean in this sentence?

8. (有模有样的“降褐迎劳") Translation?

9. (聚宝) Is this a proper name?

10. (人们称“自古节义之盛，无过此一时者) What reading should 盛 have, and how best to render this phrase in smooth English?

[ananda]

A taiwanese's writing?

1: I think he mixed 鹤立鸡群 and 卓尔不群 together, if he is a quite

famous guy, I would flatter him, if not, I could say, "shit!"

2: what's ur meaning? 誉满 just means 方孝孺 is quite famous within ...

3: yes, could be, includes his army and his prince status, in mainland we

would use 资本 instead of 积蓄, 'cause the latter always mean money.

4: 朱棣, the rebeller's spear straightly pointed to the Emperor, his nephew.

5: 城下之日 means the day his army sieged the city. Its meaning:" During

the sieging, 方孝孺 must wouldn't surrender to me. It's lucky that he

wasn't killed in the battle. If he died(without a reasonable reason), I

would lost the support of all the 读书人." 读书人 here include the

former officials, the confucian.

6: It means "can't make his secretaries too awkward."

7: it's a mistake, should be 了, I think.

8: 迎劳 often means comfort, support someone by providing something.

降褐 i don't know this expression, i guess it means the new Emperor

didn't obey the etiquette and did some intimate thing to 方, just as

the President of USA shakes hands with people.

9: Yes, it's a name of a city gate.

10: 盛 here is pronouced as "sheng4", it means "From the ancient time

till now, no one ever showed the loyalty to righteousness as Fang did.

(Fang did the best.)"

[Altair]

Thanks ever so much for the detailed response. This really helps me a lot with some of the grammatical points. These are some of the things that continue to give me problems with literary Chinese.

I think he mixed 鹤立鸡群 and 卓尔不群 together

Aaah, this makes sense! Wenlin, which I love dearly, explains 鹤立 as "expect/await eagerly," which makes no sense in the context. I guess one could translate 鹤立不群 somewhat literally as: "stood tall as a crane with no surrounding flock." 鹤立鸡群 is a really neat expression. I would translate this as "stood tall amid his/her peers like a crane among chickens."

2: what's ur meaning? 誉满 just means 方孝孺 is quite famous within

I guess then that 誉满 means that he was "full of fame" or "really famous"? Or is it that 誉满士林 means that "his fame filled the scholarly world"?

It strike me that if 他老子 means: "his daddy or his dad," this usage is differnt in Chinese than in English. One would not use "dad" or "daddy" in serious writing. One would always use "father." Does 他老子 have some specific connotation in this phrase (凭藉着他老子给他的“积蓄")? Is this meant to be humorous writing?

朱棣, the rebeller's spear straightly pointed to the Emperor, his nephew.

How does one know from the text that 朱棣 was a rebel? Does 高举起“靖难”大旗 indicate rebellion somehow? I understood this phrase as meaning only: "He raised the banner of restoring peace and stability." Does this always imply a rebellious motive, or could it also be in the name of the existing authorities?

城下之日 means the day his army sieged the city

Thanks for this. I had forgotten that 下 could mean "to besiege."

:" During

the sieging, 方孝孺 must wouldn't surrender to me. It's lucky that he

wasn't killed in the battle. If he died(without a reasonable reason), I

would lost the support of all the 读书人."

I am still a little puzzled by both the meaning and the grammar of the Chinese. Didn't this conversation take place before the siege (i.e., 在攻破京师以前) according to the text? If so, the context and intent of the phrase 彼必不降，幸勿杀之 seems challenging.

What makes 必 an appropriate word? Does it refer to the elements of the advisor's plot which can only work if 方孝孺 does not surrender? Is it that Fang's convictions will not allow him to surrender? What is the "necessity" that makes surrender impossible?

I also do not understand the character 勿 in the phrase 幸勿杀之. My dictionaries translate this character only as a command, like 别 or 不要. Is this not correct? I was surprised that your translation did not include a command. How could this phrase be said in 白话?

By the way, does 读书种子 literally mean: "the seeds of reading"? Wenlin translates this phrase as "continuity of scholarly tradition." It seemed to refer more to "tradition" than to the individual scholars that maintain it. Could the last sentence carry the meaning: "If Xiaoru is killed, the seeds of all the world's scholarship will left barren!" Is the advisor definitely plotting against Fang, or could he be expressing some admiration as well?

[shibo77]

Eh.... difficult passage! A wonder you can read it! Your Chinese is amasing!

明朝Ming Dynasty 1368-1644 (last of the four great dynasties)

Name of Emperor/Temple name/Ascendance year/Reign motto/Years of reign

朱元璋 Zhu Yuanzhang 太祖the Great forefather 1368 洪武(31)

朱允炆 Zhu Yunwen 惠帝the Benevolent 1399 建文(4)

朱棣 Zhu Di 成祖the Completer 1403 永乐(22)

These are the first three emperors of the Ming dynasties.

朱元璋 Zhu Yuanzhang is 朱棣 Zhu Di's father(他老子).

朱允炆 Zhu Yunwen is 朱棣 Zhu Di's cousin(他的侄儿).

[keikei]

"他老子" shows the disdain of the author to this prince

[ananda]

I guess then that 誉满 means that he was "full of fame" or "really famous"? Or is it that 誉满士林 means that "his fame filled the scholarly world"?

I think it should be"be famous all over ...."

It strike me that if 他老子 means: "his daddy or his dad," this usage is differnt in Chinese than in English. One would not use "dad" or "daddy" in serious writing. One would always use "father." Does 他老子 have some specific connotation in this phrase (凭藉着他老子给他的“积蓄")? Is this meant to be humorous writing?

Quote:

朱棣, the rebeller's spear straightly pointed to the Emperor, his nephew.

How does one know from the text that 朱棣 was a rebel? Does 高举起“靖难”大旗 indicate rebellion somehow? I understood this phrase as meaning only: "He raised the banner of restoring peace and stability." Does this always imply a rebellious motive, or could it also be in the name of the existing authorities?

Yes, your translation is precise. "靖难" implies that the emperor didn't

do his responsibility, he would take his responsibility to gain peace, stop

the disaster. everyone knew it's rebellion, but the rebel didn't want to

take this bad name.

Quote:

城下之日 means the day his army sieged the city

Thanks for this. I had forgotten that 下 could mean "to besiege."

Quote:

:" During

the sieging, 方孝孺 must wouldn't surrender to me. It's lucky that he

wasn't killed in the battle. If he died(without a reasonable reason), I

would lost the support of all the 读书人."

I am still a little puzzled by both the meaning and the grammar of the Chinese. Didn't this conversation take place before the siege (i.e., 在攻破京师以前) according to the text? If so, the context and intent of the phrase 彼必不降，幸勿杀之 seems challenging.

Well, I have to modify my post here. I think it's meaning is :"It's our luck if we don't kill Fang."

well, I found another version of his words.

‘南有方孝儒者，素有学行，武成之日，必不降附，请勿杀之，杀之则天下读书种子绝矣。’this seems reasonable. then it's clear that it means "please don't kill him."

What makes 必 an appropriate word? Does it refer to the elements of the advisor's plot which can only work if 方孝孺 does not surrender? Is it that Fang's convictions will not allow him to surrender? What is the "necessity" that makes surrender impossible?

必 just means must, I think it only refer to Fang's not surrender. Rebellion

are not acceptable in Confucian especially in that status, Emperor Jianwen

was regarded as a good emperor, the First emperor of Ming Dynasty was

quite brutal to his officials, Jianwen was nearly the opposite. The rebel-Zhu Di was a copy of his father, Emperor Jianwen was a good one from

every points of view except the rebels. In fact, many officials suicided

themselves at that time. Fang was a famous Confician, he had to keep his

name unstained. If he did the opposite to what he believed, there's no

difference to him between liveness and death. so the advisor deduced

that.

I also do not understand the character 勿 in the phrase 幸勿杀之. My dictionaries translate this character only as a command, like 别 or 不要. Is this not correct? I was surprised that your translation did not include a command. How could this phrase be said in 白话?

By the way, does 读书种子 literally mean: "the seeds of reading"? Wenlin ...........plotting against Fang, or could he be expressing some admiration as well?

I think Wenlin's is better. Fang was regarded as a Confucian after

Confucius, Mencius and Zhu Xi. No one knew how long it would be to

generated such an excellent person again. The advisor was a good guy,

I think, but what he said reminded Zhu Di of taking advantage of Fang,

Fang cursed Zhu Di straightly, this generated his tragedy.

[Altair]

Eh.... difficult passage! A wonder you can read it! Your Chinese is amasing!

I only wish it were so. The real credit goes to the Wenlin software. When I get a chance, I really need to post some positive views on the Wenlin thread on the Resources Forum.

朱棣 Zhu Di 成祖the Completer 1403 永乐(22)

The word "completer" has no flavor for me in English. Why is this a desirable epithet in Chinese? What is being completed?

"他老子" shows the disdain of the author to this prince

Thanks for this explanation.

Ananda, thanks yet again for all the excellent comments. I still have some questions about the historical and cultural view of this event, but I will post those on the Chinese History forum.

By the way,

但为君故(only for the sake of your leaving)

How does the Chinese in your signature say anything about leaving? Is this only implied?

[ananda]

The word "completer" has no flavor for me in English. Why is this a desirable epithet in Chinese? What is being completed?

成 means 安民立政, it means 'give people peace and be successful in

politics' , these kind of titles were always given by the emperor's successor, so you know, it's always flatterous. Well, Zhu Di,

a brutal person, on the other hand, be successful in "win many battles

against Mongolian, send Zheng He to voyage to 'west ocean', adopt

to compile '永乐大典'"

For my signature, it's Cao cao's poem to describe his desire for the elites.

well, i just stole it and let it be a love thing. I add leaving 'cause

i want to rhyme it in english. BTW, Cao cao stole the first two sentences

from a love peom of the Poem Bible(诗经), so he couldn't blame me.

[shibo77]

I thought Ananda was a monk??

Er, I wasn't completed... with my post, the next day I came back, and it was already explained, so I didn't post anymore.

the 成the Completer, maybe the English sounds a bit awkward, but to complete something is great. As you know from the Fang passage, he won back the throne from 朱允炆 Zhu Yunwen, so like father like son, back in the throne. That could be something of a completion...

And he sent the Zheng He voyages all the way to Africa, built lots of temples, and new architectural styles that you see in the Imperial Palace in Beijing formed. He probably comepleted the Palace, but I'm not sure about that.

In this way, it is a very good title to have.

-Shibo