What do you think is the essence of Chinese culture?

[Javer Chen]

actually, there is big difference between the family defined by Chinese and the family defined by other countries. Chinese keep families' list (族谱) with all people whose surname is same. for example, my surname is Chen, and our families' list records all people whose surname is Chen over the whole country, even includes some Chinese descendents who live in oversea now. from the original of our surname to today, it's about thousands years. but all the names after Chen in the past thousands years can be traced in the families' list(族谱). there are hundreds of surnames in China and each family with the same surname has that kind of families' list with all the family members(from ancestor to today) on it.

once a time, a foreign friend and me discussed about the idea 修身,齐家,治国,平天下(from 大学 a masterpiece written by 曾子Confucian's student). he said the idea is great and covers almost everything ideal to people. it mentioned people, it mentioned family, it mentioned country and it even mentioned the whole global. but Confucian missed the society, there is not even a word about the society.

I told him there is idea about the society and he can figure it out if he really understand what the word "family" means. it means not only the marriage family(家庭) but also means the whole家族( all the people with the same surname). the family(家族) is the core of Chinese society. so齐家is kind of idea about society.

it's a little unique in Chinese family culture and it's the keystone of Chinese society.

Edited December 31, 2008 at 02:56 AM by Javer Chen

[outcast]

actually, there is big difference between the family defined by Chinese and the family defined by other countries. Chinese keep families' list (族谱) with all people whose surname is same.

And traditionally western societies somehow didn't do this? There was a reason why in marriage the women would assume the mans family name, even though it does not matter now once upon a time it did.

country and family. 国and家. Chinese put this before everything.

Traditionally so did western societies. Putting country above all else was one of the leading causes of world war 1, 2 and a series of smaller wars in the 19th century.

[renzhe]

But this tradition only dates back to Napoleon. Before that, there was no concept of a nation state as such in Europe. Napoleon single-handedly introduced patriotism as a reason to go to war.

Before that, people were serfs and they hardly cared which feudal lord ruled them, and were hardly going to die for one of them.

[Javer Chen]

Quote:

actually, there is big difference between the family defined by Chinese and the family defined by other countries. Chinese keep families' list (族谱) with all people whose surname is same.

And traditionally western societies somehow didn't do this? There was a reason why in marriage the women would assume the mans family name, even though it does not matter now once upon a time it did.

Quote:

country and family. 国and家. Chinese put this before everything.

Traditionally so did western societies. Putting country above all else was one of the leading causes of world war 1, 2 and a series of smaller wars in the 19th century.

I do trust western countries also focus on family and country. but there is big difference between China and Western. and family is a more important concept in China.

I said Chinese focus on Country and Family which doesn't mean westerners don't care about country and family. just like we always think free is one essence of western culture and then do you think there is not any free in China? come on, we also have free, maybe not as much as westerners, maybe we don't care it as much as westerners,but we do have and we do care, it's a common value for the whole human being. but i still think it's suitable to say free is one essence of western culture. love family and love motherland is also a common value shared by every cultures. we are all human and no doubtly we share same values. maybe it's not unique in chinese culture, but it still can be the essence of chinese culture. or do you think only unique values can be essence of chinese culture? and can you deny family means more important to Chinese than to Westerners?

yeah, maybe your wife would assume the mans family name in west. but can you check out if how many families (with the same surname) do you have in the whole world or at least in your country? If you meet one guy whose surname is same as yours, can you check out if you have the same ancestors and when? and can you tell your seniority in the family(I mean 辈分)? we chinese can do that. why? because we record our family's history just like a country record it's history. we can know where we are from, we can know if there are some big names in our family's history and who they are. for examp, I used to visit a classmate when i was in middle school. we share the same surname. I met his grandpa and his grandpa took out our family's 族谱. he checked out we used to have the same ancestor when the family developed to the 53th generation, and his seniority in the family is 3 generations before me. so I should call him grand grandpa.

maybe the difference caused by different Economic forms. for the different natural conditions, long time ago, Chinese can live on agriculture and the westerners can't live on agriculture. they had to leave home and do business. chinese culture germinated with agriculture, it's good to form a stable family and form a culture focus on family. and long-term business trip made the western culture focus much more on free and adventure.

Edited February 21, 2009 at 07:03 AM by Javer Chen

[imron]

My family has a family tree that can be traced back some 500 years on my father's side, and also a few hundred years on my mother's side. It includes some 9,000 names (and over 11,000 names if you count the names in the American branch, which split off a couple of hundred years back). My family is definitely not unique in this, nor would it be considered a particularly long family tree.

Having such a list doesn't prove anything about the importance of family though and I'm sure there are plenty of people surnamed 陈 who are not on your family's list and who don't have extensive lists of their own (does this mean family is not so important to them?).

Also, when you say "family is a more important concept in China", I would be interested in knowing where you gained your knowledge of western families?

Edited January 4, 2009 at 08:01 AM by imron
just checked now, and was actually 500 years, not 400.

[Javer Chen]

and I'm sure there are plenty of people surnamed 陈 who are not on your family's list and who don't have extensive lists of their own (does this mean family is not so important to them?).

Oh, It's cool. maybe you think it's impossible, but yeah. it includes all the people surnamed by Chen and even some oversea descendants included on the newest version list which edited about five or six years ago. it used to be only include the same surnames in the same area, because of the restriction of communication. But thanks to the development of technology and communication becomes more and more convinient, the local lists have been united as a whole country's list. we call this job as 统一族谱, it lasted about decades years.

I suddenly find an article on internet it's similar to the foreword of 陈氏族谱, http://baike.baidu.com/view/23785.htm#7

I think it definitely consulted to the 陈氏族谱. but 族谱 is more detailed and it details the whole history of Chen. you can imagine how detail the list is if you can even know when a man changed his surname from another into Chen."曹姓改为陈姓: 浙江海宁陈氏，原系曹姓，陈氏之女为妻，生了四个儿子，便销声匿迹了. 高姓改为陈姓:唐朝末年有个叫曹宪来的人，娶都姓母亲陈氏之姓，这一支曹姓"

Having such a list doesn't prove anything about the importance of family though

If it means nothing to us, we would never record it. so, yeah, it do can prove something about the importance of family. we build a family(not means 家庭 but means家族) temple(宗祠) for holding memorial ceremonies and the whole familys' (家族) dead ancestors' 灵位 were enshrined in the temple. every 1st and 15th of month, we will hold a memorial ceremony to memory them. for many reasons(like labor mobility, economy development and cultural fault), maybe you can't find even one 宗祠 in big cities like Beijing, like Shanghai. but many cities in South and especial in rural areas, almost every 家族 keep a 宗祠 for their ancestors. but still 清明节 is a special holiday for all Chinese to memory our ancestors, do westerners have similar holidays????????? When we bury our dead ancestors, we would kowtow or kneel and touch the ground with our foreheads till we get to the tomb. would westerners do that??????????

when you say "family is a more important concept in China", I would be interested in knowing where you gained your knowledge of western families?

actually, I know little about western family culture and i am not qualified to discuss western family culture. But Eastern culture (including chinese culture) is more family-oriented which is a common consensus.

you should understand what the meaning of family in Chinese culture is and then you may understand why I think family is one essence of chinese culture. family means 家族 in chinese culture and it's the keystone of Chinese soiety and the basic social relationship in China. and also many Chinese thinkings comes from family culture like 孝文化,礼文化,三纲五常,etc. they are all important ideas to Chinese and they share the same basis---family value. we devide the law system in to Anglo-American law system and Continental law system. but actuatlly, China also have our own law system, but even many Chinese ingore it. the law system was derived from Chinese culture and the basic is Confucianism, Ethics. In ancient China history, Governors use Confucian ethics to judge the criminals. the confucian ethics' basis is also family value. that's why I think it's one essence of chinese culture, it's the basic keystone of many chinese values.

but pls easy, westerners, I just said 孝文化 important to us which doesn't mean it's not important to you. But as I know, 孝 became a form of culture ----孝文化 only in China. there is 孝顺 concept in west, but I think it can't be ranked as a culture. am I wrong? <<孝经>> written by Confucius told us what the meaning of 孝 is, how to 孝顺 parents and many other rules. it's a system of ideas about 孝. is there a book similar to <<孝经>> in west? pls let me know if there is and i would like to study if there is any difference on孝文化 between chinese culture and western culture. very appreciated if you can tell me some books about 孝文化 in west. I mean it. I only read some books about Greece culture before, because my college teacher told me Greece culture is the original of western culture and there is even no culture in America. but i really also have interest in American culture, if some guys can tell some good books about American culture, I would be very appreciated.

Edited January 6, 2009 at 01:17 AM by Javer Chen

[potato]

In response to Javer I just wanted to add that from a foreigner's experience in China with a number of different families over a couple of years: Chinese families do seem to rely on each other more. I would say however that 'closeness' is a bit of a misnomer in this context though.

I found the majority of the families quite unemotional. Emotional support for sons/daughters seemed lacking to a degree, which - just an observation - I couldn't help think stems from the regimental attitude of no real contact between children and parents when they get older. As we say here: you're never too old for a hug!

It would be fair to say that both Western and Chinese families have their good and bad sides, one of the negative, mentioned above, I believe could be integrated into Chinese culture without adversely affecting relationships within a family.