Learn Kung Fu

[volga_volga]

re #2 "as everybody knows" - I think you are citing a simplified version of the origin of baguazhang and CMA in general etc populirised by the current Chinese government sources. Shaolin temple is craddle of wushu etc etc. It is not as simple as this.

as wolivery pointed out, with regards to baguazhang at least things can be traced to the original founder.

so, while you are trying to 'correct' what was mentioned in the earlier posts, you are just reciting a tour guide story which may have very little to do with the real history.

[inguringu]

> As everybody knows, Shaolin Temple is the birthplace of Kung Fu

False opinion. Neither it is the birthplace, nor it teaches every kungfu style.

Fighting is natural for human beings. Fighting skills develop out there where they are practiced and applied - streets, battle fields, parks etc.

As much as know every school and university in China has wushu classes as a part of PE. However, most likely this is a stripped down wushu version, just movements without content, not to mention applications.

How can you hope to learn gongfu without even practicing zhan zhuang (站桩)..

[lzreading]

Firstly, my knowledge for Wushu is not from tourist guide, but from the study of Chinese history as well as the ancient literatures myself. Wushu has a well recorded and continous history since Tang dynasty that has lasted more than a thousand years. If you have enough time and enthusiasm, you could actually draw a family tree to see the connections of almost every linage of Wushu and their link to the top of the hierarchy -Shaolin, directly or indirectly.

Secondly, Wushu is more than just fighting skills. It is art, philosophy, history...I would recommend the books written by Bruce Lee, such as Tao of Jeet Kune Do, The Tao of Gung Fu as the starting point. They are written in English, hopefully will give you some indepth knowledge of martial arts.

Thirdly, once a Wushu studier myself (proper training outside school PE classes) I was very proud of the genre I was practising, Chen's Taiji, and looked down upon the others. Luckily my teacher noticed that and guided me to study the history and philosophy of Wushu, which, I found out later, not only help me to understand Wushu, but also teach me some values of life, i.e. be modest, be open-minded, to respect others, etc... Unfortunately some Wushu teachers in China tend to exaggerate their linages to attract students, their teachings are limited to basic movements and some quick fixes (even you start with standing on Mei Hua Zhuang ). In Chinese eyes, they are just teachers (lao shi), not masters (shi fu). If you study Wushu long enough, you will find out it is actually a deep ocean, not a shallow creek.

Finally, I apologize if my previous thread has upset some people. I have no intention to undermine your hard work and enthusiasm of Wushu practising. All I wanted to do is to help you to get the most from your stay in China. Good luck to you all.

Edited January 18, 2009 at 04:21 AM by lzreading

[inguringu]

lzreading,

unless you can prove othewise, you are wrong.

The styles I practice - both Baji (八极拳) and Pigua (劈掛掌) originated in Hebei Province in Northern China, and have nothing to do with Shaolin.

Histories:

Baji: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bajiquan

Pigua: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piguaquan

There is nothing wrong in admitting you are wrong. After all, it is a sign of modesty and is appreciated by others.

[lzreading]

Well, if you think the styles you are practicing are unique, it is fine.

I will not argue with you on who is right or who is wrong, just ask your teacher what the saying 天下武功出少林 means.

[woliveri]

lzreading,

You should understand that there are ppl on this board who have deep experience in Chinese Martial Arts. Most native Chinese wrongly assume non-Chinese know little about Chinese Martial Arts either Internal or External. Citing historical works, while it has a degree of importance, will do nothing to help in a confrontation. In fact, it may cause one. It's more important to understand the theory of the art, why and how to practice, the times to practice, and to actually practice. I'm in the states now and I still practice 1 to 2 hours a day, every day, while maintaining a 12 hour work day. As we say in the west, "Talk is Cheap" and "The proof is in the pudding"

So, we could spend hours, days, months, years, arguing about whether all arts come from Shaolin or not. Actually, if you want to talk history, then Shaolin arts came from India. Who was the Indian monk who taught the Shaolin Monks?

Anyway, it is a topic for historians. For me, I don't care. I trust my Bagua lineage and my teacher and I can see the quality of movements in my art so that's enough.

[woliveri]

lzreading,

What were the exercises/practices which Da Mo taught the Shaolin Monks? Do you know?

[lzreading]

Well, as I have said in the previous thread, I have no intention to undermine anyone's hardwork or the linage he is practising. Once a studier of Wushu myself, I know how hard it is to master even the simplest movements. Nor have I posed myself as an expert in Wushu. I just happen to be someone who is interested in the history of Wushu and has done some researches myself. However, it is a mission impossible for me to translate all the literatures that I have studied to prove that almost all Chinese Wushu linages have the connection to Shaolin. You might be able to find some of them in the school libraries, hopefully you will enjoy reading them as I did.

Yes, the founder of Shaolin Wushu is an Indian monk called Da Mo Zu Shi (Bodhidharma 达摩祖师), who came to China and settled down in Song Shan in about 520-526. He is also well recognised and highly respected in China as the founder of Zen buddhism and Shaolin Temple. He create some body moves to fight away wild animals and stretch his body between meditations. Those moves were then passed on to generations of his disciples, with more added as time went by. These increasingly complicated moves laid the foundation of Shaolin Wushu and were practiced by the chosen monks in order to safeguard the temple.

The history of martial arts can be traced back as early as Qin dynasty. But the recording of it was immethodical and its use was limited to militrary only. It is because the authorities feared that too many ordinary people mastering such skills would threaten their ruling over the country (侠以武犯禁). Such limitation was relaxed in Tang dynasty, thanks to the Shaolin monks saving the life of Li Shiming, the 2nd emperor of Tang. With the royal patronage Shaolin Temple became the center of Zen buddhism and Wushu study and attracted students from all over China. It is from then on that Wushu study is systematized and not surprisingly Shaolin Wushu was the mainstream of teaching, hence the saying '天下武功出少林'.

Over the thousand years, generations of talented students developed their own styles further and became the founders of various linages. Some of them were so outstanding that they even challenged the dominance of Shaolin in Wushu region. The best example is the founder of Taiji Quan, Zhang Sanfeng, who studied in Shaolin in his early years.

Again, Wushu is like a deep ocean. Some people like to go as deep and far as they can to explore the unknown, while the others may just be happy to stroll along the beach, collect the beautiful seashells and appreciate the scenery. Whatever your choice is, just enjoy it and be happy. Wushu is for health and longevity, not just for fighting.

I certainly enjoy this discussion of Wushu and it could go on forever, but I would like to stop right here as it is now way off the original topic. After all, my intention was to provide some useful information to the sender of the original thread so that he could make an informative decision on where he can stay to study both Chinese and Wushu.

Good luck with all your Wushu trainings, whichever the linages they are in. They are all part of Chinese Wushu - the legacy that makes me proud to be Chinese.

Edited January 18, 2009 at 04:42 AM by lzreading

[BJHippo]

Hi,

I'll be studying at BLCU in Beijing in Feb 09. I also want to keep up my kung fu training in modern Wushu. I've been studying Wushu for about 2.5 years with some background in Shaolin. I'm going to China with the intention of getting back the Chinese I lost growing up in America for the last 25 years. I'm Chinese American and I've had enough living in shame that I can barely speak the language of my ancestors. Anyway that being said, I have no intention of going to China with a Wushu agenda as many other people do. I just want to keep up my Wushu practice after my Chinese classes.

Does anyone know of a good school I can check out that has hours sometime in the afternoon or evening? Or if the surrounding universities offer electives in Wushu? I found so many programs online but I'm not looking for the room and board deal, just classes. It would also be good if there weren't that many foreign students in the class so I can be forced to speak Chinese. I understand fairly fluently so I don't need to use sign language.

Thanks!

[Baanos]

Hi, I dont know if this is the right forum for this, but do any of you know where I can be taught Iron shirt in China, preferably in a coastal area ? You know the discipline through which you regularly receive hits from weapons and your body eventually becomes less damaged by those hits ?

I'm thinking of moving to China for 3 months. I don't know where yet. It will depend on where I can be taught Iron shirt.

I would greatly appreciate an answer.

Thanks

[inguringu]

Hi,

my teacher in Tianjin (not far from Beijing) can teach the iron shirt along with other traditional gongfu styles.

For more check out http://swz.weebly.com/qi-gongs.html

and www.youtube.com/jingang

Dont hesitate to inquire more, if you are interested!

Regards,

Ingus

[Simon_CH]

Hi

I don't mean to hijack your thread but I think it goes roughly in the same direction:

How would you explain the lack of contemporary competitiveness of Wushu practioners in International, or even Chinese tournaments compared to other fighters, like Nak Muay ?

I have often wondered about the almost complete absence of Chinese in International Martial Arts, apart from fight shows. Muay Thai is extremely popular in Thailand, and there are thousands of kids from poor families who start at a very young age to be ready for a professional career at an age as young as 15. So no wonder they pretty much dominate international Kickboxing, boxing (light weight), Tae Kwon Do etc either directly with Thais fighting or foreigners training the art.

This for me leads to the question why Wushu and China is so conspiciously absent ?

Is there no fighting scene, not many practioners, no stadiums and tournaments ?

I was reminded of this by watching Anuwat, one of my favourite fighters compete in this Wushu tournament at the Asian Games:

http://www.mymuaythai.com/archives/anuwat-wushu-not-fair/

(and yes, Anuwat's a pro while the others here are amateurs...but where are the Pros?)

Please don't take offense at my direct question, I was merely pondering the question because I am interested in the evolution and comparison of different fighting styles, and love seeing different styles compete, but I haven't seen a single fight of a professional Nak Muay vs. Wushu practioner where you could actually say both are at the same (top) level of their respective arts.

[renzhe]

It's a matter of what you train for, and under which rules the competition takes place.

It is very natural that the arts that train you for full-contact fighting tend to do better under full-contact rules, as the training more closely resembles the competition format. Another issue is that different communities have reacted differently to the popularity of full-contact sports like kickboxing and MMA. Some of them embraced it and updated their training methods by adding contact sparring, and others retracted into their own world of traditional exercise, forms and philosophy. Which is not a bad thing, but doesn't exactly prepare you for a ring fight as well as, well, ring fighting.

So, if you're looking for Chinese competitors in full-contact competitions, you should look at Sanda/Sanshou and not Taijiquan. There are some Muay Thai vs. Sanda videos out there on youtube, and the Sanda guys do quite well in many of them.

And Thais don't dominate Taekwondo. Koreans dominate Taekwondo, for obvious reasons.

[Simon_CH]

Hi renzhe

Thanks for your answer. But I must add that Sanda vs. MT fights on youtube aren't

exactly representative for actual comparison. The best Sanda fighters lose rather regularely vs. mediocre to good Thai and Japanese MT fighters.

There is no Sanda fighter I am aware of (but please tell me if I'm wrong, I am very interested in this topic) that could compete in K1 Max or any other kickboxing tournament at the top level. Top Thai fighters have beaten Sanda masters at their own championships, much to the embarrasment of Chinese officials who, to my knowledge, have stopped inviting foreign fighters. But you are right of course, a martial art that doesn't focus on ring fighting of course can't be compared to a very competitive sport like Muay Thai. And it doesn't say anything about its value in a self defence or every day situation.

But I just wonder why ring fighters seemingly aren't as popular and successful in China as elsewhere in Asia.

And you're right of course, Thais aren't dominating Taekwondo, but they are really good at it, have won several world champions, just like in boxing, where together with Cuba they pretty much dominate the lighter weight classes, all of whom coming from a Muay Thai background.

[renzhe]

Well, you often have mediocre boxers defeating top-notch kickboxers too.

It's a matter of talent pool, cultural environment, and a number of other things. The number of professional Thai-boxers in Thailand is staggering. Sanda isn't that widespread, to my knowledge.

At the end of the day, people should train a martial art they enjoy. If it's competition you're after, you should train in a gym that consistently produces top fighter in that discipline. If it's other things you're after, you should look for a school where you can learn these other things.

But I think that extrapolating from ring matches (especially from youtube clips) to "real-life hardcore streetfighting effectiveness" and whatnot is very difficult. I'm not saying that you are doing this, but there is a trend on the interenet of jumping to conclusions. There are many things you can learn in a traditional gongfu school that you cannot learn in a boxing gym, and vice versa. Most martial arts are worth studying, given a good teacher, and the most important thing is finding something that suits you as a person, IMHO.

[Simon_CH]

I certainly agree with that. I will start looking for a good full contact school when in Kunming. I am not very dogmatic when it comes to specific styles, as long as it's fun and exhausting.

[rezaf]

This for me leads to the question why Wushu and China is so conspiciously absent ?

Because there is no way to make a sport out of wushu. There are lots of exaggerating types of wushu that are used for demonstrations or movies which are beautiful as dancing but worthless in real fights. The purpose of wushu is to kill the opponent in a few seconds and if you put rules like not hitting the groin or not breaking the neck or wearing boxing gloves then they won't be called wushu. The deadlier the styles are the less chance you have in seeing them practicing in the open or taking part in those competitions.

[msasinowski]

hi (and merry Christmas!)

 

apologies for digging out a thread from the past, but i thought its better not to create a new one, since my question pertains to what has been said here.

 

im practising wushu here in china, and im thinking to use the coming holidays to focus more on it, without all the quotidian distractions of a big city. i went once to a little town and enjoyed the experience, but since the teacher from there is not replying to my emails, and while it was a good experience but not an excellent one, i thought it might be a sign i should try something else. I asked around, not much luck so far, and since i  do not want to go to any massive wushu-factories things (shaoling, wudang affiliated schools), which seems to be the only baidu results i can get, so id like to ask people here for more personal recommendations. 

 

what i dont want:

shaolin / “retreat" places with only english website and catering for laowais

baidu/google results things - i checked by myself, but, by default, i don't trust internet 

 

what i want:

i'd prefer to avoid big cities (i livein xi'an, and for me its way too big), but my priority is quality of the training and teacher's attitude, so im open for any suggestions,

i practice hongquan (红拳), branch of long-fist (长拳), but i know im going to continue to do it here after, so i would like to try something different - i really like the praying mantis style(螳螂拳), and that was what i did last time in Shandong - i'd love to have a chance to try again,

i want intensive practice. my skills and overall stamina are bad, but i am very persevering and need a challenging environment.

i dont care about facilities, i dont need company, i dont need internet connection at home.

i speak fluent mandarin, including wushu vocabulary, i'd prefer chinese to be the language of instruction

i can have 2 up to 4 weeks off.

 

i think thats it, i appreciate your help.