Is China really Confucianist? (+ other questions)

[82riceballs]

I hope these aren't questions that heavily depends on who you're asking, but they've been haunting me for a while... I"ve added my own thoughts beneath them (except for the 3rd one, since I’m not very versed in the history of Chinese society). Feel free to ignore them

1. Is (modern) China/Chinese society really Confucianist?

My reasoning is that if it actually was, there would be no problems involving environmental destruction and tainted food products, since Confucius advocated harmony (with others, nature) as well as the virtue of benevolence.

2. So are these problems caused by a loss of culture? What would you pinpoint as the main source of these problems?

My thoughts straddle between the Cultural Revolution and rapid industrialization. The Cultural Revolution degraded Confucian virtues (such as filial piety) as well as any form of religion in its goal to praise undying loyalty to the party and chairman. The sudden removal ethical codes compounded by a series of calamities that left many penniless produced a new generation of people willing to do anything for monetary gain. However, I think these problems also arise in the early industrialization stages of "First World Countries," where rampant, unregulated industrialization caused violations of basic human rights, environmental pollution, and a host of other issues.

3. So was China before this loss of culture a much better society?

Thanks in advance!

[dalaowai]

Interesting post! I've been thinking about such things as well. I feel that the majority of Chinese still operate in Confucian mode (i.e. countryside), however that in bigger cities there is a less Confucian way of living.

For example, the majority of migrant workers return home at Chinese New Years and give their parents and family most of the money that they earned. On the other hand, a recent poll that I read on kaixin001.com the majority of young city dwellers did not want to live with their parents once they got married.

Another somewhat related topic would be that of collectivism in China dying out. I find that since the new generation was created with 1 child policy, they have become more individualist people. However, in the countryside, where people were allowed to have more than one child, the communities are more collectivist.

All together, it's hard to pinpoint which religion/philosophy starts and ends where, as Confucianism, Daoism and Buddhism has been mixed in so extensively. I would say that the destruction of the environment goes against Daoist teachings the most.

Throughout the Dynasties, there were emperors who were against Confucianism and then some who were for it. Confucians were executed for the beliefs in some dynasties and in others they played important roles in the court. While Confucianism might be fading, it will eventually make a strong comeback into society as it has in the past. The same can be said for Daoism and Buddhism.

[jiangl]

My biggest objection to point one would be that a partial violation of a set of values do not entirely null someone's ties to those values. That's like saying that since the crusaders killed people, and Christianity commands people not to kill, they were secretly not Christians. Sorry if my point seems vague.

Furthermore, I don't entirely agree that the Cultural Revolution destroyed any values at all. Perhaps it destroyed groups of people who believed in said values, but the fact that we are even having this discussion to me suggests that Confucian beliefs are alive and well, although certainly the past 50 years have not exactly been Confucianism's zenith

[Lu]

My reasoning is that if it actually was, there would be no problems involving environmental destruction and tainted food products, since Confucius advocated harmony (with others, nature) as well as the virtue of benevolence.

A similar question would be 'are western nations really based on Christian values, and if so, how come they still have armies?'

Confucius is not god-like in China, and all Chinese don't get up everyday determined to follow Conf's guidances. But many Confucian values are still very much alive in China, particularly in how people interact.

On the other hand, a recent poll that I read on kaixin001.com the majority of young city dwellers did not want to live with their parents once they got married.

But can you imagine such a poll even being held in the US? Shows city dwellers are still expected to go and live with their parents (or their parents with them).

[82riceballs]

Thanks for the input, guys!

But many Confucian values are still very much alive in China, particularly in how people interact.

I don’t know why, but I get the feeling that Confucianism is already dying in personal interactions. People (Chinese, Europeans, Taiwanese, etc) who’ve been to China as tourists often tell me about how they’ve been scammed by the cutthroat locals. Of course, I don’t believe that every Chinese is like this, but I think that currently, a lot more of them prioritize money over anything else. Recently, I read this article: 澳洲人眼中的中国人家庭观念 ---值得我们深思 (written by a Chinese) which explains this phenomenon in terms of history—i.e. that a historical lack of a sound social security system plus the effects of being “窮怕了” created this generation of people.

I know that me saying this may make me sound like a self-righteous Westerner, but I’m just trying to analyze Chinese culture, so any help is appreciated!

[Lu]

From the top of my head:

A Chinese friend of mine was living here, but engaged in China. His fiancee was living with his parents, since as a good daughter-in-law she's supposed to take care of them. Later they got married, he returned abroad, she wanted to come too but by then she was pregnant, and her father didn't want her to go, so she didn't go.

Myself and a young Chinese woman were taking turns interpreting for a Chinese theater troupe. Most communication went through the leader of the group. One day, the interpreter passed on the message from someone from the theater where the group was performing, that this or that was impossible, or necessary. The leader was annoyed that the young female interpreter was trying to tell him, the older male leader, what to do.

The internet poll mentioned above. There is still some expectation that several generations should live in the same house.

重男轻女. This is not limited to Confucianism, but it is Confucian, and very, very widespread in China.

The idea that homosexuality in itself is not so bad, as long as my son makes sure he gets married and has a son, to continue the family line.

The emphasis on learning, school, studying. In what European or African country do generations of kids study to the point of exhaustion, and sometimes beyond?

And even the cheating of strangers is somewhat along those lines: family is important, friends too, but strangers should take care of themselves.

[82riceballs]

So, in your opinion, would Confucius approve of modern Chinese culture/society?

[jiangl]

So, in your opinion, would Confucius approve of modern Chinese culture/society?

Full disclosure: My knowledge of modern Chinese society and Confucianism is at best average, and at worst embarrassingly inadequate.

I think this is a tough question. Obviously approval from Confucius is different than approval in other "belief systems", or whatever generic phrase you want to use to group Confucianism with more traditionally-defined religions. Christianity has its concept of The City Of God, Islam has the unified Shariah law, and even Buddhism -admired/criticized by many as a less "tangible" religion- has its Noble Truths and Eightfold Path. Obviously Confucianism is different in this respect. While there are certainly fundamental truths in Confucianism, clearly there is no church hierarchy to create or enforce a centralized power that can clearly define good and bad and the punishments for being bad and the rewards for being good.

Indeed, unlike Christ or Muhammad, Confucius -if I remember correctly- only claimed to be transmitting ancient knowledge, not serving as a wellspring of new truths himself.

Would Confucius approve of modern Chinese politics and society? Probably not. But remember, Confucius did not even fully approve of his own society. Even way back in the 5th century BC, he was nostalgic for earlier days and felt rulers should model themselves on the kings of yore. So, for me, Confucius is not about judging societies and individuals as fit or not, but how to temper them into better ones.

Any thoughts? Sorry, I think my post comes off as a little pretentious

Edited December 28, 2008 at 07:22 AM by jiangl
A witch once cursed me to never make a typo-free post

[gato]

I agree with Lu mostly. Confucianism has a few defining characteristics. The most prominent is its emphasis on social obligations based on one's social positions. You have different kind of obligations towards your parents, your superiors, subordinates and fellow citizens. The obligations towards one's parents are the heaviest and given the most emphasis. Children are supposed to be unconditionally loyal to their parents. Kings liked this and expanded it to imply the same kind of unconditional loyalty towards the King or Emperor. You can see this obligation towards one's parents in China today. All the threads complaining about Chinese still relying on parental approval of spouses on this forum is one aspect of that.

Confucianism's teaching about obligations towards one's fellow citizens, on the other hand, isn't as much in display today, but that probably has more to do with the political system. It's not that people do not intellectually understand that they have responsibility towards each other, but that they feel if they acted responsibly, they will lose out ( 吃亏 ) under the current system. Take cutting in line for example. When everybody cuts in line, then those who wait in line patiently will lose out and look like dummies. In China, you often hear people who follow the rules being called 傻 (dumb) or at least 老实 (naive).

The emphasis on learning, school, studying. In what European or African country do generations of kids study to the point of exhaustion, and sometimes beyond?

This has more to do with the examination system than the philosophy of Confucianism, I think. Western philosophy (starting with the Greek) placed just as much value (if not more) on learning and inquiry of the truth, but what's different about the Chinese system is the system of examinations, first used in the old days to select government officials, and now for many other purposes, as well, including the notorious the university admission exams. Note that the Imperial Exams did not exist during Confucius's time (Confucius lived before the first Qin emperor unified China). The exams weren't fully developed until the Tang Dynasty.

Given the same type of exam system, you would see similar pressure to study in European countries, as well. See this article about the old Soviet Union, for example:

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,836022,00.html

Exam Fever in Russia

Friday, Jul. 15, 1966

Even at the best of times, the Soviet student faces the kind of admissions ordeal that makes getting into Harvard seem as easy as signing up for first grade in public school.

[Lu]

But the exams are what they are because of the Confucian idea that someone who knows what is right can only do what is right, that learning makes a person not just more knowledgeable, but also a better person, and so a better ruler. That grew into a tradition of great emphasis on learning and exams.

[gato]

But the exams are what they are because of the Confucian idea that someone who knows what is right can only do what is right, that learning makes a person not just more knowledgeable, but also a better person, and so a better ruler. That grew into a tradition of great emphasis on learning and exams.

But are the West's ideas about learning that different?

Plato had this idea about the Philosopher King after all, that the ideal ruler should be a philosopher, an avid learner and seeker of truth. My impression is that during Confucius's time, learning isn't that between the East and West. There wasn't yet any imperial examination. Confucius's community of students isn't that different in character from the students in ancient Greece or Rome. They were more like debating societies than cram schools that later predominated to prepare people for the imperial exams. I think you can see this in the Analects, which are not that different from the Dialogues of Plato in terms of the interaction between the teacher and the students, though the Greeks did tend to be more analytical.

[Lu]

I haven't researched this, but I have the impression that in the west (including ancient Greece) learning is to increase knowledge, where in China it is also to increase virtue. Later on, in western countries people dived into the 'hard sciences', trying to learn more about how things work, where in China the emphasis was more on moral issues, on how people and society work.

[gato]

I haven't researched this, but I have the impression that in the west (including ancient Greece) learning is to increase knowledge, where in China it is also to increase virtue. Later on, in western countries people dived into the 'hard sciences', trying to learn more about how things work, where in China the emphasis was more on moral issues, on how people and society work.

It's in the West that a significant number of people learn to become virtuous. You can see it in the Christian (particularly Protestant) emphasis on studying and understanding the Bible. From the secular world, you see that in liberal arts tradition of education, stretching from the ancient Greeks to today.

In China most people believe in learning for materialistic reasons, that it may lead to riches or prestige. I think that's as true a thousand years ago with the incentives of the imperial exams as it is today with university exams.

The vast majority of Chinese were illiterate in the old days, so how could there be a general belief that learning leads to virtue? Wouldn't that mean that most people believed that they themselves were not virtuous.

[Javer Chen]

thanks for the question. it really evoked me think a lot.

first, Confucianism is the most important idea but there is not only Confucianism in chinese traditional culture. many other ideas like Daoism, 墨家idea, Buddhism and even 游侠 idea also influenced and influencing Chinese very much in every aspects. Actually, Daoism focus on the harmony between human and nature much more than Confucianism. Confucianism focus more on the society and tell people how to be a good man. There is a typical characteristic in Chinese history. Daoism would usually be adopted by the rulers when the country got in troubles, involved in wars and fell in unrests. But Confucianism would be usually adopted by the rulers when the country is living in peace and prosperous. From Song dynasty on, there are also at least 3 main ideas in China. they are Confucianism, Daoism and Buddhism.

Each idea means different to Chinese. Buddhism is just like a supermarket, there is everything, you can go there at any time, you can never go there, you can buy anything, you can buy nothing. but it's a need to the society, because others may need it; Daoism is just like a hospital to the society, you can never go there if you are health. But you must go there if you are sick. Daoism includes great knowledge in many aspects like philosophy, military, 纵横家 and medicine and so on. Many social diseases cured by Daoism. It’s a neccessory to the country. Confucianism is just like a food shop, everybody need it everyday. It’s a must to the society.

But the traditional culture suffered big damages many times in Modern history, especially the Confucianism. It suffered big damages twice at least in modern history. One is in the period of五四运动（how to say this event in English?）and the other is in the period of the great cultural revolution. “beat the Confucianism down” is the most famous slogan of 五四运动。 The young thought Confucianism impeded the development of China and caused us fall behind in the world, so they wanted to beat it down and study western culture. What a joke and we Chinese should feel guilty. Beat the traditional culture down???????? No doubt there are bad ideas in Chinese traditional culture and there are also bad rules in Confucianism. But we can’t refuse to eat for fear of choking; we can’t close the whole food shop just for one dish caused us a sick. Close the Chinese food shop and start to eat western food. It would definitely cause us be sick and it did, because we have been used to eat Chinese food for 5000 years and how can our stomach get used to western food? And similar things happened in the period of the great cultural revolution.

From that time on, there is a kind of cultural fault in Chinese traditional culture and Chinese became a nation which has no belief and no principle. The revolution and opening up started in 1978, two years after the great cultural revolution ended. Western cultures and ideas started to invade in mainland, especially the market idea. The biggest advantage of market idea is everything can be valued and traded in market and it makes sure the economy go effectively; but the biggest disadvantage is same, everything can be valued and traded include some priceless things like moral, love and etc. it makes the moral go down. There is the Cross culture (Christian culture) can balance the market and the moral in the western. We used to have our own culture can offer the same function too, but we destroyed it very much and ignored it for a long time.

Economy get big progress since 1978, but also followed by many serious social problems. Lured by the material lives, many material boys and girls appeared; there are many merchant only focus on money; there are many entrepreneurs only focus on profit. The environment faced very big pressure; the moral goes down and etc. All these problems caused by one common reason, we Chinese lost our roots, our culture roots, we became empty and without belief. We destroyed our own culture and now we get the retribution. Finally, we started to rethink about Confucianism and other traditional culture. We found things started to go bad since Ming dynasty. Zhu Yuanzhang who created the Ming dynasty ordered to use Zhu Xi’s explanation of Confucianism as the one and only judge standard for the imperial examination. It caused all the students stop thinking and just recite Zhu Xi’s explanation. It is definitely a dangerous sign when there is only one sound in the whole country and things started to turn bad. But thanks for the Big family values. Many important and good believes inherited through family and daily life from generation by generation. At least, we are still family-oriented country; at least, parents still means most to our Chinese.

More and more Chinese realized the problem and more and more Chinese ask for a come back of our traditional culture. Now I am very happy to see many and many and many and more and more Chinese children start to study Chinese traditional culture classics since the first grade. We are waiting, we are awaiting China become a Confucianist again.

Edited December 31, 2008 at 01:17 AM by Javer Chen

[simonlaing]

I think confucius thought and culture is still prevalent in China.

I live in Nanjing a great 2nd tier city. The Boston of China.

Anyway I with my wife and mother-in-law celebrate burn the money for the ancestor holidays. Giving the red bags and/or presents to parents and grandparents at spring festival is still very important.

The wife still wants the mother-in-law to live with us when we have a kid. (I am still on the fence).

Confucism was about responsibilities to those who have the relationship with you, a.k.a. in your group. Thus the cutting in line issues are not related as those people are not one of your 5 relationships. Even in the Ruler subject relationships the subjects responsibility is to the ruler not the other subjects though the outpouring of charity this summer to sichuan was impressive.

Even the central government buying all those US security bonds to give jobs to its people and avoid a recession is a reflection of the Confucius mandate from heaven idea. I think Gato's idea about the issues of parental approval of boyfriends and girlfriends is right on the money.

I think also the Chinese idea of having a kid early because of pressure from the parents is a significant example of the power of family influence and Confucius belief in the respect for family elders.

The only issues where the Confucism might have been undermined somewhat is the older brother young brother issues are not applicable in a one child policy society.

What do you think about these examples?

have fun,

Simon:)

[gato]

Confucism was about responsibilities to those who have the relationship with you, a.k.a. in your group. Thus the cutting in line issues are not related as those people are not one of your 5 relationships. Even in the Ruler subject relationships the subjects responsibility is to the ruler not the other subjects though the outpouring of charity this summer to sichuan was impressive.

I think that's a stereotype. Confucian ethics applies to how one should treat everyone, not just those you have a close relationship with, although there is more of an emphasis on that and this is the part of Confucianism that has survived the best despite the revolutions Javer Chen mentioned above.

Confucianism also has a concept of "compassion" (仁) which applies to how one relates to the society in general. It's not that different from the Golden Rule, i.e., treat others as how you would want others to treat you. Cutting in lines / breaking the law to get ahead in life does come into conflict with this idea.

See this for more details:

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/confucius/

Confucius' social philosophy largely revolves around the concept of ren [仁], “compassion” or “loving others.” Cultivating or practicing such concern for others involved deprecating oneself. This meant being sure to avoid artful speech or an ingratiating manner that would create a false impression and lead to self-aggrandizement. (Lunyu 1.3) Those who have cultivated ren are, on the contrary, “simple in manner and slow of speech.” (Lunyu 13.27). For Confucius, such concern for others is demonstrated through the practice of forms of the Golden Rule: “What you do not wish for yourself, do not do to others;” “Since you yourself desire standing then help others achieve it, since you yourself desire success then help others attain it.” (Lunyu 12.2, 6.30). He regards devotion to parents and older siblings as the most basic form of promoting the interests of others before one's own and teaches that such altruism can be accomplished only by those who have learned self-discipline.

While ritual forms often have to do with the more narrow relations of family and clan, ren, however, is to be practiced broadly and informs one's interactions with all people. Confucius warns those in power that they should not oppress or take for granted even the lowliest of their subjects. “You may rob the Three Armies of their commander, but you cannot deprive the humblest peasant of his opinion.” (Lunyu 9.26) Confucius regards loving others as a calling and a mission for which one should be ready to die (Lunyu 15.9).

[bhchao]

Lured by the material lives, many material boys and girls appeared; there are many merchant only focus on money; there are many entrepreneurs only focus on profit

I think the high national savings rate in China, 50%, is also indicative of Confucian influences in Chinese society. Other factors like a weak social security and healthcare system pressure people to save in China. Yet thrift and frugality are extolled virtues in Confucian societies. China, despite the modernization and its 'little emperor' generation, seems to have retained much of this thrift virtue.

The high savings rate in China will inevitably go down. It is unlikely though to go all the way down to 0% like today's US, even when a strong social security net emerges in China.

The generation born in the 1980s and 1990s are materialistic, but I doubt they have embraced a credit card culture despite the availability of credit in China. (correct me if I am wrong). If that's true, then this may have to do with Confucian values of restraint when it comes to purchasing things that you cannot afford with your resources.

A case in point is that many Chinese restaurants overseas do not accept credit cards from customers. Only cash is accepted. Even in larger Chinese restaurants for example, a minimum of a $15 order is required for the customer to use his or her credit card.

[82riceballs]

Wow! Thanks for all the feedback!!

Javer Chen, your "stomach & food" analogy is quite interesting! I'm curious--Is there any Chinese proverb that this comes from?

Confucian ethics applies to how one should treat everyone, not just those you have a close relationship with

I agree with this. I remember reading about how Confucius stressed that showing love/benevolence to all was importance. "He should overflow in love to all, and cultivate the friendship of the good". "When abroad, behave to everyone as if you were receiving an important guest; treat people as if you were assisting at a great sacrifice; do not do to others as you would not wish done to yourself. Thereby you will let no murmuring rise against you in the country, and none in the family."

Bhchao, it's very interesting that you bring up the national savings rate! (It applies very much to what's going on now). Do you, by any chance, know the savings rates of other relatively Confucian places--South Korea, Hong Kong, Taiwan, SIngapore, etc? I wonder how they compare to China's national savings rate.

Thanks so much, everyone!!

[The Elf Piper]

I just finished reading this book, which I found interesting, and you might too:

http://www.amazon.com/Chinas-New-Confucianism-Politics-Everyday/dp/0691136904/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_a

[Lu]

五四运动 is May Fourth Movement.

Javer Chen, I like your analogies and agree with a lot of what you say.

I don't really agree with what you say about open markets, though. From what I know, China has a long tradition of trading (Silk Route!), it's not something that only started after 1978. I don't know much about the morals of the old days, but things like love (well, women, at least) and power (corruption) have been for sale for centuries already.