Is China really Confucianist? (+ other questions)

[Javer Chen]

五四运动 is May Fourth Movement.

Thanks, Lu.

yeah, you are right. love and power have been for sale for many years and it's not unique in market society.

I just want to put empasis on there are also other things worth to pursue in Confucianism. but Market idea only focus on profit or focus on profit most. it will cause moral down. but I don't mean to erase the Market, because it's useful in some aspects and in some way. society is a complex system and need a package of ideas to keep it run well.

I'm curious--Is there any Chinese proverb that this comes from?

there is a proverb 因噎废食(yin ye fei shi). means refuse to eat for fear of chocking.

bhchao offered a good example to show Confucianism still influence Chinese.

thanks for the question and thanks for the share of all you guys' thinking about this topic.

[xieco]

Cultural value is more apparent than real in practice. I see my own culture as actually more political than apolitical when it comes to interpersonal relationships, which is far more important than history.

Throughout the Dynasties, there were emperors who were against Confucianism and then some who were for it. Confucians were executed for the beliefs in some dynasties and in others they played important roles in the court. While Confucianism might be fading, it will eventually make a strong comeback into society as it has in the past. The same can be said for Daoism and Buddhism.

It'd be utterly wrong to say the culture is entirely Confucian. Among ordinary people, it's often a combination of Confucianism and Daoism and Buddhism, so that our language has mixed a lot of idioms and proverbs from all 3 schools of thought. To give you some obvious examples, I'm non-religious, but since I'm culturally Chinese, I say "my god" or "the sky" interchangeably as in the English "my god"*. I don't have a real god in my heart (the Abrahamic); the Chinese god might actually be a non-religious abstract in non-religious Chinese. I also use idioms and proverbs every day without being strictly a Confucian or Daoist or Buddhist. For me, "Chinese culture" just isn't strictly highly religious, unlike some other cultures that tend to hold fundamentalist views on religion. (To be subjective), that's also why I feel content with my culture, since my culture has strictly no century-long religious conflicts. Very often, in China, politics overwhelms everything, including religion. All that Confucian stuff foreigners talk about about China is just apparent. Confucianism, in almost all situations I don't even regard it a religion in Western terms but, rather, an abstract kind of cultural philosophy. Chinese Emperors respected Confucianism the most (even Manchu emperors came to embrace it, along with the cultural language of Chinese), but in fact Confucianism had been a tool for stable rule, I think.

I don't even think all that talks about the Cultural Revolution, or any turmoils in the last century, did destroy the cultural values once and for all. I may view it as another kind of Iconoclasm, which actually took place in different forms and ways in the course of Chinese history. It may be of a larger scale than Qin Shi Huang (well, who was notorious for burning books, but his action was minimal compared to Mao)

Apart from family values, I also think utilitarianism is an essence in Confucianism. I think it generally dominates my life. For an average Chinese like me, I'd say it's entirely insane, when I see some foreigners do things that are a complete waste of money and material. Many Chinese do this too, but often not to the risk of their own lives. Apart from the property and exam things, risky sports, for example, strike me as crazy.

Yet, I can still say Confucianism is most important as a kind of philosophy. I see cultural flaws as inherent even in this -ism itself. Confucianism, as some of you should know, became dominant under political agenda, and very often certain Confucian scholars sound, to me, simply downright hypocritic. THIS is exactly what the Chinese think! Because of exactly the political-minded thing, for example, Confucianism, along with its utilitarianism, often produce cultural values of combined selfishness and political struggle, little veiled by Confucius' own (political) ideals. From his 親疏有別 presupposition, whether that is a distorted view by some future scholars, it does follow, for me, that it's hardly very much moral-binding, at least in the Abrahamic fashion.

*For this reason, some Western public political thought strikes me as weird. How come there is so much political correctness as NOT to say Merry Christmas to a non-religious/atheist/etc person!? At least, one of my own essential cultural thoughts is that, while I don't care for fundamentalism, I'm rather libertarian (in English terms; I don't say this in Chinese)/liberal about religion. That the Chinese also celebrate Christmas, for example, without most of them NOT being Christian, and that they do so just to HAVE FUN, already means many Chinese don't take religion seriously, especially if they aren't religious at all.

[gato]

Yet, I can still say Confucianism is most important as a kind of philosophy. I see cultural flaws as inherent even in this -ism itself. Confucianism, as some of you should know, became dominant under political agenda, and very often certain Confucian scholars sound, to me, simply downright hypocritic. THIS is exactly what the Chinese think! Because of exactly the political-minded thing, for example, Confucianism, along with its utilitarianism, often produce cultural values of combined selfishness and political struggle, little veiled by Confucius' own (political) ideals. From his 親疏有別 presupposition, whether that is a distorted view by some future scholars, it does follow, for me, that it's hardly very much moral-binding, at least in the Abrahamic fashion.

This defense of hierarchy in human relationships is one of the most enduring features of Confucianism in my view. It has not been changed by the Cultural Revolution in any meaningful extent. A number of things flow from this: relativism in morality, for example. Right and wrong depends in part on who are dealing with. Contrast this with the more absolutist moral views of Christianity.

[outcast]

The young thought Confucianism impeded the development of China and caused us fall behind in the world, so they wanted to beat it down and study western culture. What a joke and we Chinese should feel guilty. Beat the traditional culture down????????

They thought this because it did. It's stifling social structure, rigid obedience, and aversion to change all helped to ensure China's downfall. It is worth mentioning that China has invented nothing in more than 500 years, about the same amount of time neo-confucianism (the version in use today) has reined. Coincidence? Not likely.

While it is true there is a "value vacuum" in China today, surely there must be a better way than resurrecting failed traditions that are clearly not suitable for this century.

[82riceballs]

They thought this because it did. It's stifling social structure, rigid obedience, and aversion to change all helped to ensure China's downfall.

Sorry, I'm still grappling with Confucianism. Could you please explain how it caused "aversion to change"? Thanks!

[outcast]

Sorry, I'm still grappling with Confucianism. Could you please explain how it caused "aversion to change"? Thanks!

In the 1800's, even as early as the 1840's it become very obvious that major changes were needed in China, yet the Qing dynasty, backed up by confucian scholars and the confucian gentry absolutely refused to make any kind of changes. Why? Because this would have threatened the harmony in China. Harmony is what confucianism prizes, but in reality this ended up translating into a "maintain the status quo at all costs" way of thinking.

[gato]

Sorry, I'm still grappling with Confucianism. Could you please explain how it caused "aversion to change"? Thanks!

One of the foundations of Confucianism is ancestor worship, which works to inhibit change. Or put in more secularly, Confucianists tend to think that the traditional ways (preferably the ways of Zhou and Xia Dynasties from three thousand years ago) are the best ways.