Writing / Reading in Mainland China

[Kame Sennin]

Hello.

I haven't yet started studying Chinese, but I plan to, next year.

I have several questions and I'd be really grateful if someone could answer them:

1) are college students in Mainland China fluent in reading traditional hanzi? (if not, do they get fluent in it until let's say... 30 years of age?)

2) can college students in Mainland China (fluently) write traditional hanzi?

3) I've read on these forums that when studying Mandarin (same for Taiwanese and Cantonese?), one should learn how to read both traditional and simplified hanzi, but write only 1 of those ==> does this mean learning how to write both types would be waste of time or too difficult? (I'm asking because I'm interested in knowing reading and writing of both)

Thank you for your time.

[xiaocai]

1) I think some of them are but some of them are not very fluent depending on individual exposure to traditional hanzi-using media, but I really don't know the percentages.

2) I guess most of them can't, or at least can't write fully in traditional, and will tend to make mistakes when attempt to. In most occasions the speed of writing will slow down a lot as well.

3) There is no problem if you want to learn to write both, but just make sure you don't mix them up.

[sukitc]

My humble suggestion is to focus on just one--traditional or simplified--when you start off. To try to learn both concurrently will be very taxing and could possibly be discouraging.

Once you're quite familiar with one, then I believe it's imperative to try to at least be able to read both. While simplified is gaining prominance, traditional is still very widely used--especially, if you plan to use your skills amongst overseas Chinese.

[david808]

As sukitc said, starting with one or another, but not both at the same time.

[Kame Sennin]

Hello, xiaocai and sukitc.

Thank you both very much for your answers.

I've just realized I forgot to mention something important.

I have been studying Japanese for several years now, and I can write more than 1300 kanji used in Japan. I am using Heisig's book "Remembering the Kanji I: A Complete Course on How Not To Forget the Meaning and Writing of Japanese Characters", and I really like it.

I also plan to work with book 3 in the series, and maybe even book 2.

Heisig introduces method of how to write 3007 kanjis in total in these 3 books.

Since I have been doing okay so far, I am pretty sure I will manage to learn all 3007 kanji (and more later) one day. These 3007 kanji include all of 1945 jouyou kanjis, almost all of the name kanjis, and many other kanjis.

Now my question:

Let's assume I know all 3007 kanji ( ) (or at least going in that direction), I have pretty decent Japanese vocabulary knowledge, and decide to study Mandarin, what would you suggest me to start with:

a) first learn to: read simplified and write simplified

B) first learn to: read simplified and write traditional

c) first learn to: read traditional and write traditional

d) first learn to: read traditional and write simplified ?

(of course, by "write" I don't mean inputting by keyboard, but actual writing with my hand)

Also, I don't know which of the simplified and traditional sets of kanjis used in China contain more kanjis that are used in Japan.

Maybe it's obvious which of the a) B) c) & d) I should start with, but somehow it doesn't get to me yet.

I'd be extremely grateful if somebody could advice me on which of those 4 to start with, depending on everything I wrote above.

[renzhe]

Regarding 3)

Most native Chinese learn to write by lots of repetition of characters, until they basically become etched into muscle memory. I've often experienced native speakers shoot characters "from the hip", straight onto paper, but get confused if you start asking them if this-and-that phonetic component of this-and-that character is the same as that of some other character. Then they'd shoot from the hip, write both down, and compare.

I guess that this makes learning to write both sets equally well very difficult (you'd have to re-learn to write most of the characters, and it's a lengthy process).

Regarding learning both, I strongly urge you to get very comfortable with one set first. Once you get literate in one (this will likely take a couple of years), learning the differences is a matter or a month or two. If you insist on learning both at the same time (and writing all of them too), you might be looking at doubling your studying time.

Think of it this way: learning 3000 characters + a few hundred major differences is better than learning 5000 characters.

[Kame Sennin]

Thank you, david808 and renzhe.

I have posted the reply already with some other questions but they still haven't appeared in here T_T ....

[Lu]

1) Some may be able to read it fluently, some not at all. Depends on individual interest/how much trad. character material they have read. This doesn't change with age. Someone who is never exposed to a lot of tradition characters will never be able to read them well.

2) Most people in China cannot write traditional characters. Students can't either. There will be exceptions.

3) As to Mandarin, first get a basis in one system. If you expect you'll be in Taiwan or HK, learn traditional first; if you want to go to the mainland, simplified is a good choice. If you eventually want to learn both, personally I'd recommend starting with traditional, as I think it's easier to go from trad to simp than the other way around.

Cantonese has its own writing system, which is mostly the same as written Mandarin with different words, some different grammar, and a few extra characters. Unless you specifically want to learn Cantonese for special reasons, it would be wiser to learn to write Mandarin, since all educated Cantonese speakers in greater China will be able to read and write Mandarin, often even better than Cantonese.

Taiwanese is still very much in the process of standardizing its characters, if you want to learn Taiwanese I'd recommend just learning to speak, and stick to Mandarin for writing. Even people who speak only Taiwanese and never Mandarin will write in Mandarin.

Mandarin as spoken on Taiwan is a different issue, it's almost the same as mainland Mandarin, except written in traditional characters.

I hope this helps!

[renzhe]

I'd be extremely grateful if somebody could advice me on which of those 4 to start with, depending on everything I wrote above.

Learning to read simplified but write traditional, or the other way around, makes no sense.

If you know 3000 kanji, I'd recommend learning traditional Chinese characters (reading and writing). Kanjis are basically simplified hanzi, but the simplifications the Japanese did are less comprehensive than those done in Mainland China (see here). The Japanese Kanjis are more similar to traditional Chinese characters, many of them being exactly the same.

But, just like warned before -- I'd recommend getting used to kanji before learning either traditional or simplified Chinese. The Japanese Kanji are basically a third set.

[imron]

Like renzhe said, learning to read one kind and write the other is impractical, which really only leaves you with two choices. Making this choice is also quite simple. If your interests lie more towards mainland China, then go with simplified characters. If your interests lie more towards Taiwan/Hong Kong, then go for traditional characters. i.e. learn the one that is regularly used by the Chinese people you plan/would like to interact with. Once you've learned one, it's not particularly difficult to learn the other and there's a large amount of overlap anyway.

[Kame Sennin]

Lu, thank you for your reply.

Actually, for long time now I've been thinking whether to study Mandarin or Cantonese.

I am very interested in both of them.

Mandarin is really spread, and covers (almost) entire China, it has more materials to learn from. Also, more people could help me with it.

But of course, I also really like the Mandarin pronunciation.

On the other hand, I adore Cantonese pronunciation, I like how traditional characters are used a lot in Cantonese speaking areas, and the fact that it's one of the traditional Chinese languages. (I have no interests towards Taiwan or Taiwanese btw.)

Also, I plan to live in Japan in a few years, and I'm not sure if I'll ever live in China, but would like to interact with Chinese people. I still haven't firmly decided, but studying Mandarin (at least before Cantonese) sounds like better option right now.

still, .... deciding on which of traditional and simplified hanzi will come first is still hard for me... but I'll make that decision soon.

renzhe and imron, thank you both for your replies.

What you said makes sense.

Your advices helped a lot!

Thank you!

[Kame Sennin]

1 (last?) question:

Would learning Cantonese with traditional characters now, and then Mandarin with simplified characters later make any sense, considering how many materials there are online about Cantonese, and that I won't be getting any help from natives in person (since there are no any near me)?

Or would learning Mandarin with simplified hanzis first let me grasp the knowledge of both Cantonese and Mandarin better?

(I know that many people said traditional->modern is much easier in theory, but considering not just that, but resources available for me, and no current exposure to any Chinese person or Chinese speaking area, does traditional->modern still work? ==> assume I want to learn both languages and both sets of characters some day)

==> I apologize for so many questions, but it's really important to me.

A lots of thanks to everyone who reads this and can help.

[Hofmann]

If I'm understanding your situation correctly, you already know many Traditional Chinese characters, as the Japanese simplifications aren't as severe as the Simplified Chinese simplifications. It would make most sense to learn Traditional Chinese first.

As to which Chinese language (or dialect, whatever you want to call them) to learn, look at your objectives. For communication, Mandarin would work best, unless you're planning on staying in a primarily Cantonese-speaking area.

Cantonese is more conservative in phonology than Mandarin. I assume you know On-yomi. The On-yomi you know would map more neatly into Cantonese. Poetry also rhymes better. Also, there might be more resources than you might think. Take a look at this site and its forums.

If you want to learn Mandarin and Simplified Chinese later, it's easier going from Cantonese and Traditional Chinese than the other way around.

[Kame Sennin]

Hofmann, thank you a lot for your words and the links!

Seems really nice!

[calibre2001]

If you're planning to learn cantonese, please focus on listening and speaking first. I think characters can come later since spoken cantonese should be the main focus. Alot of people have successfully learnt it without learning the reading component. Written chinese should only come in later to refine your vocabulary, expressions once you have a solid grasp of spoken cantonese. Even though you can already read kanji, I'm not sure if it helps you to 'read' rather than merely 'decipher' chinese text. Maybe someone who has done Japanese and Chinese can shed some light on this.

[Kame Sennin]

calibre2001, thank you very much for your advices!

It's really helpful!

-----------------------------

It's strange.... whenever I think I've decided which of the Cantonese and Mandarin I will study, the other one attracts me >_> .

It's surely gonna be a tough decision~

[Lu]

What are you going to learn Chinese for? If it's for communication with Chinese in greater China, Mandarin is the best choice. Most Cantonese in China, and even many in Hong Kong, know Mandarin.

If you are specifically interested in Cantonese movies or music, or are planning to stay long-term in Hong Kong (or maybe Guangzhou), then Cantonese is the right choice.

In short, only pick Cantonese if you are very specifically interested in Cantonese-language things or people, and not particularly in the rest of China. Otherwise, best go for Mandarin.

Knowing one will be somewhat helpful in learning the other, much as knowing Latin is somewhat helpful if you want to learn French. They are related languages (dialects, whatever), but mutually unintelligible.

(I don't really know Japanese, but I imagine that knowing one set of characters will be very helpful in learning another one. For one, you won't be scared of learning a huge amount of characters, since you already know that's doable. For another, you already know a lot of characters.)

[renzhe]

Keep in mind that the vast vast majority of Chinese, whether in Shanghai, Hong Kong, Macau or Taiwan or overseas, read and write modern vernacular Chinese.

Modern vernacular Chinese is essentially Mandarin, regarding vocabulary, grammar, etc. Even in Hong Kong and other Cantonese-speaking areas, the majority of serious newspapers, books and magazines are written in vernacular Chinese, not written Cantonese. Written Cantonese exists, but is not as common, even in Hong Kong, and far less common in the Cantonese-speaking mainland.

You can write vernacular Chinese using simplified or traditional characters, but it is quite different from Cantonese. In short, Mandarin-speaking people read and write almost exactly the way they speak, Cantonese-speaking people will usually say one thing, and write what a Beijinger would speak (roughly speaking). So the majority of written material available for study (in traditional AND simplified characters) will be written in a way that is basically Mandarin. This is a very very important factor.

[Kame Sennin]

Lu and renzhe, thank you once again for your helpful words.

[Kame Sennin]

Hello. I have a few more questions.

1) Do Taiwanese people also use traditional hanzi for writing in Mandarin?

(if yes, are they fluent in writing Mandarin with traditional hanzi?

2) Can Taiwanese people read Mandarin written in traditional hanzi fluently?

(I'm asking this because if I decided to study Mandarin with traditional hanzi, I want to know if Taiwanese people could help me with studying online)