過 vs. 了

[magomago]

Hi everyone,

I studied chinese for over three years...yet I found that after not using for 6 months after college, I have forgotten much of it >< I decided to start getting back in the mode by reading childrens books, yet I am confused with this sentence.

他爸爸賣力地把原子油漆過.

I've typically come across 過 as meaning ' have experienced/done'. ie: 百香果, 我吃過 (although oddly enough, i have this desire to toss a 了after 過) to mean "i have eaten passion fruit before".

Thus i feel the translation states that "the father, using a lot of effort, painted the courtyard before". There is no indication of when it happened or time at all, only that it was an action that occured in the past.

But as far as the story in concerned, it is very obvious that he just painted it and went to sleep (thus allowing the little boy a hand at the half full paint can ;)). They are trying to say that he PAINTED it that day, not that 'he has painted it before'....The story isn't very difficult or complex to follow, so I'm positive about this.

I want to know why 了 is not used in place of 過. What am I missing/not understanding?

了 was probably the hardest thing for me to pick up even after three years of study...so i'm worried i'm missing something big along. any explanation would be much appreciated, thanks!

[hetong_007]

well...It's a really hard question even to a native speaker :-)

I guess,过 means you had something done before,了 could also mean you've just done that.

I can give you some examples,I hope you can figure out what exactly is the difference.

我去过桂林/我去了桂林

我学过羽毛球/我学了羽毛球

sometimes they can't instead of the other one,like:我的一生全完了。

Here i think,过 is focusing on the experiences you've got before,and it could be happening again.

了 is focusing on the situation which have just happened,and generally could not happen again.

I'm a Chinese.I hope you can understand what i've said

[renzhe]

I'm not 100% sure that this will help, but 了 generally refers to the change of states. So it wasn't painted before, and then it got painted. It stresses this change -- the completion of an action.

过 refers to something that took place in the past. It stresses the process, and usually refers to things that you learned from, and stresses the experience.

Think of it as putting a different accent on the action, not as different tenses. "过" doesn't necessarily mean that something happened in the distant past, it could also be taking place now, same for "了". But it would be helpful to see the context.

[DrZero]

I think it has the feeling of "had done" in this case. The boy's father had painted the wall, and gone to sleep, so the boy had a chance to have a go with the half-can of paint.

[magomago]

Hi Everyone,

Thanks for the replies. I earlier got a hold of a grammar book (lol I bought an ebook online because I couldn't wait, but I had no idea it was DRM all the way...first and LAST time I purchase an ebook without making sure that it is DRM free) and found out the differences, or so I think I know the differences right now ;)

過 's use is to describe habitual actions that have happened AT LEAST once in the past - it is an experiential element. The big catcher, which was picked up on, is that it CANNOT happen with events that are NOT repeatable. This is fairly straight forward (unlike 了 lol)

I may 看過電視 because it is an action that can be repeated, I can also 油漆過 many times. But Christopher Columbus CANNOT (as the book mentioned) "發現過美洲大陸". The discovery of the same land mass, by the same person, cannot occur more than once, and thus 過 is replaced by 了 (which, in this instance, acts as presenting the viewpoint of 發現 in the entirety, which is, in this instance, is America)

From that understanding, I'm willing to say with a high level of confidence that you cannot 認識過他媽媽. You can only be acquainted with someone once - not multiple times (unless there is a case of amnesia lol ) It must be 我認識了他媽媽 (where 了 acts as a presenting the action of 'knowing' as it extends to 他[ie: a pronoun]).

So within that context, I understand that in the sentence, that because the father can paint the courtyard many times, it takes a 過　usage.

Now let us look at the usage for 了 to see why it does not work. It can be used when our verb is: bounded, is a quantified event, being a definite/specific event, being the inherent meaning of a situation, the first in a series.

In this instance, 油漆 is not bounded at all. It just says that it was painted - we may be tempted to say "but we can say 認識了他", just replies the person with a place; however, we must remember that 他 is a pronoun which can indeed act as a binding element. A Courtyard 院子 on its own does not contsitute the verb as being sufficiently bound. It must be specified further for it to be valid as a binding element and allow 了 usage.

The event is not quantified at all - it did not say he painted it multiple times. By the same logic we are not defining the painting as a specific event (ie: he painted 50 meters squared).

There is not 'inherent' ending of 油漆 at all. When I mean an inherent ending, I mean a verb that specifically suggests some kind of completion. Something like a resultantive verb such as 找到　or 打破 are good examples. There are also a few verbs, such as 死 which automatically imply an endpoint (lol, like death 死! Once you die, there is not much that you do)

We are also not describing a series of events at all. This is a single painting. It did not say he then immediately fell asleep (although the illustration clearly showed that ;))

Thus, as the sentence exists, 了 is an insufficient choice. I mentioned that if I add 已經, then the 了 can go in. I was right, but then 了 switches into a 'new situation' 了 marking the completion of the painting of the court yard (ie: it wasn't painted to the existing specifications before).

I hope that helps, and I hope someone can corroborate what I wrote. Although I did look this up, I explained it in my own words and tried to use my own examples save for Mr. Columbus. Its amazing how understanding the logic/rules for the usage of something make it a lot clearer. I can't say I can use 了 correctly now without fail (although I probably can for 過 since it is simpler), I can probably do it with a much higher consistenty as compared with before, and if I make a mistake, I can fully understand why I did.

Here is to hope that the days of using 了 incorrectly are drawing to an end ;)

[imron]

See also this thread.

[HashiriKata]

Here is to hope that the days of using 了 incorrectly are drawing to an end ;)

The pessimist in me is saying that you're too much of an optimist

[jiangping]

Thanks for posting up all that info, it made interesting reading. I'm not a native speaker, but here's what I can make of it.

I think the 過 is actually functioning as a complement rather than a suffix. In other words, if you wanted to change the sentence a bit, it wouldn't be a 了 that replaced it, but rather something like 完 or 好. Because it's being used as a verb complement rather than the usual “experiental suffix”, it doesn't have any of the connotations to do with “once” or the event having to be repeatable.

When 過 is often used as a verb complement for things to do with daily routine:

A:你吃過飯沒有？ B:吃過了

It can also emphasis that a whole process has been gone through, in much the same way as 完, like in your sentence: 他爸爸賣力地把原子油漆過.

I hope this helps:)