Total beginner....

[Kame Sennin]

Hello.

I have finally made my last decision.

I will study Mandarin with traditional hanzi.

I know that first thing I should start studying is pronunciation.

I am not sure how to start.

I practically don't know how to pronounce anything, let the tones aside.

http://www.chinese-lessons.com/mandarin/pinyin/south_f/x.htm

Should I just play and repeat every word from this site? (combined with tones, there's lots of them.)

I'm not sure how to start properly....

( I don't want to just rush into it, but I'd like to be prepared in order to know what to do once I start. )

Any help is appreciated.

[Understudy]

Hey there,

Tones are a crucial step in understanding the language, and I would highly suggest investing in a textbook of sorts that includes a CD or tape to accompany each lesson. I find that websites are of great help once you have some knowledge of the language, but for someone just starting out they can be somewhat difficult to use. Though learning the tones properly is a rather painful and not particularly exciting period of study, getting a full understanding of the large combination of sounds will be of great help not only in reading dialogues and studying new words, but also in learning to decipher between the many similar sounds when speaking. I like the textbook "Integrated Chinese", which can be purchased in combination which audio recordings. Stick with it and don't get discouraged!

[renzhe]

It really, really, really helps to have a native speaker in the beginning, to make sure you get the right sounds (and the concept of tones) early, before you get bad habits ingrained.

If you get them right from the start, they'll be correct forever, if you get them wrong, you'll battle with bad pronunciation later.

Depending on where in Croatia you are, you might be able to find either a native speaker or take an introductory course (just to get the pronunciation part right, not the whole course), or something else. I know there are courses in Zagreb, as well as some native speakers, but still far less than in many cities in Western Europe.

As for material, you could look into beginner podcasts. Chinesepod.com provides beginner podcasts for free, and they are great quality, and you could look into some other ones.

EDIT: The links on the page you posted don't work for me.

[Lu]

I agree that it would be a very, very good idea to find a native speaker to help you with pronounciation. It would be nearly impossible to get pronounciation and tones right without someone coaching you on this. There is a lot of listening material online, that is good but still doesn't teach you to speak yourself. If there is no Chinese to be found near where you live, you might try finding a tutor on skype.

Good luck!

[Kame Sennin]

Understudy, thank you very much for your help. I will check out that book.

[Kame Sennin]

renzhe, thank you for your suggestions.

I live in Karlovac, about 50 kilometers south from Zagreb.

I have rarely seen a Chinese person in here.

My college classes continue next week, and I have lots of things to do this week, so I can't go to Zagreb for anything.... unfortunately...

I don't know any Chinese person in real life, either.

Hmm, thank you for the links too.

P.S. You have to click on the arrows symbol on the left side from pinyin, flash audio will be played (don't click on the pinyin)

[Kame Sennin]

Lu, thank you for your advices.

I must really have bad luck...

Not only I don't know (nor see) any Chinese person in my life, I also have a not really good internet. It's pretty expensive. I have 512 MB limit per month, and that goes away fast just by browsing websites. (I can cross the limit, but then I pay extra, more expensive, I can't afford it).

Skype sounds great (I have never used it though), but audio data would probably take lots of megabytes, so I'd be in a big trouble.... T__T;;

*sigh* I don't know what to do... I'll have to think hard on this one...

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Everyone, thank you again for your help!

[roddy]

I have to admit I'm kind of amazed that more people aren't recommending the purchase of a decent textbook, like Understudy did. Teach Yourself Chinese, Integrated Chinese, Chinese Made Easier, New Practical Chinese Reader.

If it's hard to get hold of one of these, then borrow a decent internet connection and get the FSI Chinese course.

If you can't get any of these in tradiational characters, I'd just start with the simplified - you'll be better off getting a solid start in simplified and then learning traditional, than a poor start in traditional.

[renzhe]

Well, congratulations on your determination to learn Chinese. Learning it so far away from China and any native speakers takes great resolve, but it can also be very rewarding.

Written Chinese lends itself really well to being studied on your own. You could make great progress doing that. You could also use listening materials (podcasts, then TV shows when you get better) to improve your listening. You'd probably have to wait for a while to work on your spoken Chinese.

Whatever you do, I'd recommend getting a good textbook (either Integrated Chinese or New Practical Chinese Reader, just make sure to get a traditional character version if that's what you're after), a good flashcard program (search this site for discussions on Mnemosyne and Anki or Supermemo), and dedicating a half-hour to Chinese every day. It really helps to do it every day, even a little. And be prepared to take several years -- Chinese is a language that rewards patience and perseverance.

Other than that, you could try getting a language partner in Zagreb, it's not too far and you could probably make a trip every two weeks or once a month. There is a small Chinese community there, who could likely profit from practicing Croatian, and I've even met a Chinese guy in Beijing who studied in Zagreb and spoke fluent Croatian (but he's back in Beijing now). So it might be difficult, but definitely not impossible. You could drop some advertisements with your phone number in the Chinese restaurants, or contact some language schools to see if they have any contacts, or something like that. This way, you could practice some conversation, but far more importantly, you'd be working towards proper pronunciation. All it would cost you is a ticket and a coffee, if you find the right partner. You could also ask some bigger language schools if they have any suggestions, they have experienced staff there, who might have a few tips.

[Kame Sennin]

Hello, roddy.

Thank you very much for your help.

Actually, people mentioned some of those books in my first post on these forums.

I'll check out FSI as well.

Your help is really appreciated.

[Kame Sennin]

Hi again, renzhe.

Thank you very much for your help and advices again.

I've checked the internet, and found some language school in Zagreb that teaches Chinese. Gosh, it's expensive... I found another one, price is better, but I think you can get in in autumn only (would need to check for more info); but anyhow, classes take place when I have my college classes so that's off for now.

Your idea about going to Zagreb and finding a study partner sounds good, but I think I won't try that until summer. (or at least 'till my major exams are over)

Really helpful advice!

I will also try contacting those schools and ask for tips, as you suggested.

Thank you a lot!

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Until I get to explore those options well, I was wondering... would it help if I recorded my pronunciation, and posted it in these forums, so people could comment on it? (next to me using some of those books you recommended, and pods)

It might be useful. (or am I wrong?)

[renzhe]

Until I get to explore those options well, I was wondering... would it help if I recorded my pronunciation, and posted it in these forums, so people could comment on it?

Absolutely, and feel free to do this. You could try listening to a conversation on a textbook CD several times, then try recording yourself reading it, or something.

Still, while it will help you know your weak spots, it is not as good as doing it in real-life, as it is difficult to give useful feedback (how it SHOULD sound and what you should do to make it proper).

[Kame Sennin]

Ah, that's good to know.

Thank you very much.

[Kame Sennin]

I need your advices.

After checking out the books people in here gave me, I've decided I might buy 2 of those books. (it's pricey, but I will give up on some other things in my life )

1st question:

renzhe gave me this link:

http://www.studychineseculture.com/book.asp?id=4352

==> Does anyone know if CD(s) is/are included in this book?

I've searched everywhere else, and I couldn't find example of this book anywhere else.

(I only found traditional version of "Practical Chinese Reader", but that's not the same book.

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2nd question:

http://www.amazon.com/Practical-Chinese-Reader-Textbook-Vol/dp/7561910401/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1231322163&sr=8-1

http://www.amazon.com/Yourself-Mandarin-Chinese-Complete-Package/dp/0071430334/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1231322981&sr=8-1

roddy said: "If you can't get any of these in traditional characters, I'd just start with the simplified - you'll be better off getting a solid start in simplified and then learning traditional, than a poor start in traditional."

==> (In case I don't buy the book under 1st question): Would it be a good idea to purchase these 2 books?

If these books could help me a lot, I guess whether it's using simplified, or traditional hanzis doesn't really matter for beginner stage.

In any case, I could probably also look at pinyin in book and retype the example sentences in microsoft word in traditional version, and practice there.

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3rd question:

I know it sounds silly, but could anyone confirm that books at links I provided in question 2 really contain CD(s) accompanying them?

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4th question:

(about books under question 2)

Would you recommend me to buy both of them, or just one of them? (which one?)

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[renzhe]

As for NPCR, there definitely is a traditional version (it's relatively recent). It is exactly the same as the regular NPCR, except that it uses traditional characters throughout. I don't know if it comes with a CD, but the regular (simplified) version does, and it also comes with a DVD.

You can contact the user elina here on the forum, she runs that website and can give you concrete answers about what exactly they ship.

Many of the videos from the DVD can be found on youtube, so the DVD is not essential, but the CDs are useful if you don't have much other exposure.

[Kame Sennin]

I understand the concepts of the four Mandarin tones (I mean, I know how they differ), but what's with the "5th, neutral" tone?

Wikipedia says it's neutral, but I don't know how it should be pronounced.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/58/Pinyin_Tone_Chart.svg/115px-Pinyin_Tone_Chart.svg.png

This is Wikipedia's chart of the 4 tones. How would you define the 5th tone using these 5 levels?

[Lu]

The fifth tone has no emphasis, that's the main thing. How exactly it sounds depends on what tone came before. This sounds very complicated, I think the best is to practice listening and speaking, and it will come fairly naturally (it did for me, at least).

Also I think there must be some threads on the forums for the 5th tone, you can probably find a lot of information there.

[Hofmann]

Neutral Tone

Online reading material

[Kame Sennin]

Lu, thank you very much for your explanation.

Hofmann, thank you very much for the links.

Hmm I hope I'll get the sense of it soon.

[renzhe]

This one is really best learnt through listening. It can sound like a number of things, and any "rule" to describe it is bound to get complicated.

Think of most Chinese sylables as being separately stressed. You pronounce them clearly, with a clear tone. The neutral syllables aren't stressed, you simply speak them quickly "in passing" while going from one stressed syllable to the other. Just say them in passing while stressing the syllable before it, and you'll probably get it right.