A Question About Chinese Marriage

[ianmc38]

Myself and my girlfriend from HK were discussing Chinese marriages recently. She mentioned that if we marry in the future, I will have to pay her mother a sum of money, according to her in excess of 50000HKD. This to me is bewildering. I've never heard of money being used as a dowry in Chinese marriages and I can't find any information sources online.

Can anyone give me some more information about this?

Thanks.

[skylee]

50000HKD is bewildering?

I think for some people instead of giving money, paying for the banquet, the house, etc is also ok.

I think dowry is something that the woman's family gives to the man, not the other way around.

[kdavid]

I've only heard of this happening with non-city families (i.e. country girls).

Families in the city tend to stick by the tradition of the man's family buying a house and the woman's family furnishing it.

[gato]

Families in the city tend to stick by the tradition of the man's family buying a house

That would add up to several million RMB in a number of Chinese cities. So consider yourself lucky, ianmc38, to be asked for only 50,000 HK dollars.

[afriday11]

If you are a foreigner you really should be able to get away with not paying anything. If she really loves you she wouldn't demand you pay her family, this isn't the 1800's.

[skylee]

If you are a foreigner you really should be able to get away with not paying anything.

This is so interesting.

[Meng Lelan]

She loves you or she loves money.

[Yang Rui]

I'm a bit surprised by the comments about loving you or your money, and getting away without paying because you're a foreigner. I'm sure if the OP is considering marriage (IF) then he wouldn't suspect his future bride of trying to wheedle money out of him, and he wouldn't risk ruining relations with his in-laws by refusing to pay the sum of HK$50,000.

I don't know anything about marriage traditions, but i do know that these things vary across China. Your girlfriend's family may be going by a tradition from the part of China where they have their roots (most HKers families originally come from the mainland). If money is a concern bear in mind that in HK, guests bring "yan ching" to weddings and this usually covers the cost of the banquet. The other day I went to a friend's wedding here and gave them HK$800. To be honest, the banquet wasn't really worth it, and that money is more than i spent on my own mother's christmas present. But that's the way things are done here, and there is no way i would try to "get away without paying" because it would just look awful.

[skylee]

I'm a bit surprised by the comments about loving you or your money

indeed, as if they are mutually exclusive ...

[Lu]

The foreigner comment looks a bit weird, but I guess it goes something like this: she knows you're a foreigner and your traditions are different, paying a dowry is not your tradition, and so she should understand that and not demand a dowry, or else not want to marry a foreigner.

Still not a sensible way of reasoning, IMO.

I don't know about dowries, but it's not uncommon that the husband is supposed to own a house before he can hope to marry. But that money doesn't go directly to the bride's family, it's more a guarantee that he can provide a roof over her head.

[peekay]

I'm not an expert in Chinese marriages by any means, but I think it's common in traditional weddings for the groom's family to give a sum of money to the bride's family. This is called the "bride's price" (or "ping jin", 娉金).

This is NOT the "dowry" and usually happens some days / weeks before the wedding itself, in a different ceremony where the groom's family asks for the bride's hand (a formal engagement if you will.)

The exact tradition will vary depending on where the bride's family comes from (Cantonese vs. Hokkien, etc.) But usually there you have to give the "ping jin", some fruits, gold jewelry, hard liquor, pork, etc. Again the exact amounts and composition differs by exact ethnic group, family status, etc.

The bride's family will customarily *return* some portion of the "ping jin" and the other gifts, plus give you new gifts of their own.

E.g. you might give 48888 dollars, 12 oranges, gold, 10 cakes, and two bottles of hard liquor. They might in return gift you 18888 dollars, 6 oranges, two bottles of syrup, and some candles.

Also I believe it's usually the groom's family's responsibility to pay for the wedding. The bride's family will ask for a number of "tables" at the wedding for their guests.

The "dowry" goes the other way around (from the bride's family to you), usually on the day of the wedding or it could be part of the engagement ceremony above. The dowry might include things like jewelry, clothing, bedding, tea set for the tea ceremony, etc.

Depending on traditions, it can be very (very) important for you to give the proper gifts and perform all the ceremonies, etc., for the bride's family. Not doing so can cause considerable embarrassment for the bride's family in their community.

Keep in mind that traditional Chinese weddings are usually affairs between the two families, not two individuals. So it's not the groom's individual responsibility to pay the "ping jin" but rather it comes from "the groom's family".

So start warning your parents to save up some money.

ps. Having said that, from what I've seen Chinese weddings are still cheaper than most Western weddings I've been to, especially since the guests tend to bring red-envelopes full of cash.

[msittig]

Keep in mind that traditional Chinese weddings are usually affairs between the two families, not two individuals.

Traditional Chinese weddings are between two Chinese families; so be sensitive to the emotional needs of your bride and her parents, but also be firm and clear that this is a special wedding between your and your wife-to-be, and that it will be as unique and different as you two are.

[Meng Lelan]

There is nothing surprising about asking if she loves him or she loves the money - or both. This is a very serious question anyone should ask before any marriage. I'm assuming she loves him and she is trying to explain this tradition the best she can without anyone losing face. I am not saying love of spouse and love of money are mutually exclusive. Some people marry for love, some people marry for money, some people both, but it is very important to understand WHY they are getting married - love or money or both. Otherwise the consequences are really serious.

[jbradfor]

I'm not an expert in Chinese marriages by any means, but I think it's common in traditional weddings for the groom's family to give a sum of money to the bride's family. This is called the "bride's price" (or "ping jin", 娉金).

I'm not expert either, but that's my understanding too.

The rationale I was given is that in traditional Chinese society, since after marriage the bride effectively leaves her family and becomes part of the groom's family, the money is to pay for the "care and feeding" of the bride from birth until marriage.

Now as to how much is appropriate, and how often this is still done, I have absolutely no idea.

[ianmc38]

Yeah she told me it's ping yin.

As far as I'm aware her family is originally from Yunnan.

She has already told me that I don't have to do it, but that it would be a considerable embarrassment for her and her family should I choose not to.

Thanks for all the helpful replies.

[heifeng]

So I asked my 'inside source' before i posted here, just so I could put the actual numbers for a recent example from the countryside (in Shandong). When his bro got married, his brother and parents (note, they join forces here for this) had to provide the following:

10,000 rmb - 20,000 in cash given to the girl directly (but maybe some of the cash value was included in some misc. gifts, electric scooter, down jacket, etc), but she can use the cash for home furnishings, etc

other expenses:

400 + dinner for the matchmaker

40,000-50,000 to build the house (which the family did when it was around 'marrying time' for him and before he had picked out the girl yet)

So in conclusion it cost the family about 70,000 to marry their son...let's change the wording here, to add a daughter-in-law to the family. Not a small sum for a regular nongcun family...so his brother works in the city to earn money, meanwhile his wife and new baby are in the house back home w/ his parents helping out. I think this is a very very common story...

[edit, I just realized, I forgot about the actual wedding costs...I forgot to ask the specifics here but I'd guess around 10,000 there for the musicians playing the horn infront of the car, the car rental, the fireworks, the meal, the photos & video, liquor, etc...]

Hope this helps

now, just a note: HK definitely seems more expensive than the mainland countryside...if anything I'd worry more about what the housing expectations are from her family...yikes...that would make 50,000 seem like a drop in the bucket.

---now for less first hand knowledge information-----

then in a case in the US (which I'm not aaaaaas familiar w/ but my friend was telling me 'bout this, so it's basically a friend of a friend's story..) the guy had to give the girl's family (originally from somewhere in the south, Guangdong...or HK..maybe Taiwan...I forgot) 2 matching mercedes (one for each in-law) before they allowed them to marry..hahaha...so far he's only able to afford one...but maybe this economy will help him w/ the financing......anyway, this seemed slightly less practical/more greedy

Edited March 9, 2009 at 01:52 AM by heifeng

[trien27]

American men are used to having the bride's family pay for everything EXCEPT the wedding ring. Not so if you are marrying a Chinese woman:

50000HKD is bewildering?

It is roughly $7000 USD, which by the way isn't very much. Sometimes the dowry is based on the groom's salary. The greater your pay, the higher the dowry should be.

By marrying a Chinese woman, it's like you're taking her to a new home, who might not be going back to her parents while she's still married to you.

[afriday11]

入乡随俗 (ru4xiang1 sui2su2) - when in Rome, do as the Romans do

Though I don't think I'd be down with the dowry thing, I learned this phrase today and thought it was fitting.

[Hanlink]

聘金, as earlier noted, is definitely a part of a traditional marriage in Hong Kong, although whether or not it is taken in total is very much up to the various parties in the marriage.

The money aspect is likely to be a 'face' thing as much as anything else. I know of one case where it was decided before the ceremony that the bride's mother would accept the cheque, but then tear it up when she was given it, which gave face to both sides.

Of course, in such a situation, the cheque had to be large (it definitely would have bounced), but not ridiculously so, so that the bride's family could go wow, then the bride's mother in a show of altruism, says she doesn't need it and gives the cheque back. This is one way out.

Howecver, if the bride's parents really do want or need the money, then you either bite the bullet, get your girl-friend to sort her family out or elope!

Weddings can be very stressful affairs - good luck!

[tony1343]

My fiance's mom is trying to get to to give 88800 RMB I believe (has to be sanba or something like that). I think they also traditionally expect a house too.

I of course objected and said no way. Then to assuage my hesitance, I was told that of course the family gives it back to us (traditionally used to furnish the house, but now just give the money back). I told my fiancee her mom could have the money for a few minutes then before returning (I don't think she told her mom that though).

Then I found out her mom wants to keep the money for one year. I said no way to that. Then I told her mom that transferring the money into RMB would cost too much in finance charges to just transfer it back a year later.

I basically can't do this, because I have student loans (finished grad school not too long ago) and this is basically almost all of the money I have saved up. If I lost my job with the bad economy, I wouldn't be able to survive (which would be bad for my fiancee). Her mom seems to buy into this. I think some arrangement is going to be come up with where I can give the sanba (what I call it in my made up Chinglish pidgin) but not really give it (so she knows I have money to support her daughter I guess and save face). I think my fiancee's mom was trying to scare me away before too, but not finally believes that we are truly in love.

I'm not big into the ultimatums. Her mom tells me I need to do this because it is Chinese custom and I'm marrying a Chinese girl. I told her that I'm a westerner so she needs to pay me a dowry and pay for the wedding (instead of me paying). Funny that she doesn't want to see it that way.

Of course all of this is translated through my fiancee to take out my rudeness (but I get upset over all of this, and am not a big fan of antiquated customs). It's a learning experience. At first I thought it was just about the money. But it's not. My fiancee lives in a house that her mom owns. Looks like she's might have my fiancee sell it and use it to buy a house in America (which is worth more than what my sanba would be).