Colloquial idioms

[chrix]

I think scoobyqueen might be referring to 惯用语, that is any kind of idiomatic expression really?

I too have looked at this site before, and came away with the impression that 谚语 are more like proverbs and less useful for learners.

[Daan]

Hi chrix,

I think using a Google Docs form would be very useful here. We could set up a web interface to allow everyone to contribute new idioms, have another page that would display all idioms that have already been entered, and then we could also grant certain people the authority to edit all the data. Should I just create an example? If you've never used the Google Docs forms, it's certainly worth looking into, these things make my life a lot easier

Cheers,

Daan

[chrix]

sounds great, Daan!

[tooironic]

Well, these two lists I posted before are pretty good. Why don't you use them?

As far as I can tell those lists don't give any translations, explanations, context, register (formal, colloquial etc) or example sentences. It's easy to come up with a list of idioms, but providing these things as well is essential if one wants to learn them thoroughly.

[Daan]

Okay, I set something up. I'm open for any suggestions or remarks, as I only threw this together in ten minutes.

Anyone can enter new idioms here:

http://spreadsheets.google.com/viewform?formkey=cjVsYXNLWkNsWmNyM2ptOEU1Z3YtVFE6MA..

Anyone can view all idioms that have been entered here:

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=r5lasKZClZcr3jm8E5gv-TQ&output=html

This page is automatically updated every five minutes. If you want to edit the original spreadsheet, you can click "Edit this page". You would need a password, which I have, but I'm not sure if it'd be smart to post it here? I could just PM it to anyone who would like to have it, or I could post it here, whatever you like.

Additionally, you can have Google Docs export all this information to PDF, CSV, XLS, CSV, and many other formats. Try this link, for example:

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=r5lasKZClZcr3jm8E5gv-TQ&output=pdf

or this:

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=r5lasKZClZcr3jm8E5gv-TQ&output=xls

They're still empty, but I'll add the ones from the .doc file Scoobyqueen posted in a few minutes Please post any remarks you might have!!

[Daan]

I added the first six, so you can now click on all the links I posted and get an idea of the possibilities with such forms. Some things I would like to improve: I want the hyperlink in the confirmation message to work, as that would make it much easier to go on to enter another idiom when you've submitted one.

Also, I instructed Docs to require at least the jiantizi, pinyin and meaning. Should I change that? I noticed information many of the idioms that have already been posted lacks at least one of the three, but I think all three are vital to learners of Chinese. What do you think?

[Scoobyqueen]

Daan thanks for putting in this effort. It is much appreciated.

You are right it needs all three categories. Is there any way I can correct? Currently seem to need an email etc.

If I start entering terms, does it help anyone if I post the new entries on this thread also so that people know the list has been extended? The term may then also provide basis for discussion.

As far as I can tell those lists don't give any translations, explanations, context, register (formal, colloquial etc) or example sentences. It's easy to come up with a list of idioms, but providing these things as well is essential if one wants to learn them thoroughly.

I don’t think it is easy to come up with a list of idioms hence my suggestion to start a list. You need to have come across the expression first and then be disciplined enough to jot it down as a useful term for later. I think Gato’s list is very good starting point because it enables me to look these expressions up whereas I may not have come across them in the first place.

[tooironic]

Sure, but I'm still cautious to learn anything (especially such contentious things as idioms) out of context. You might come across some interesting stuff going through lists, but the caveat is to make sure you confirm with native/advanced speakers as to how common they are, if they're particular to one region, register, blah, blah. If this is overlooked you might find yourself using lots of interesting language in awkward/inappropriate contexts. I'm sure we've all made this mistake before.

Anyway, I think this database thing is a great idea, but a field must be created where we can put in details regarding all of the things I just mentioned. Otherwise you may as well buy one of those dodgy "500 daily kouyu expression" books. Sure they're entertaining, but there is always a handful of expressions/translations which are just completely out of this world...

[Daan]

You are right it needs all three categories. Is there any way I can correct? Currently seem to need an email etc.

Yes, anyone we like can be granted permission to edit the dataset, all you need is the password. I PMed it to you, not sure if I should post it publicly?

If I start entering terms, does it help anyone if I post the new entries on this thread also so that people know the list has been extended? The term may then also provide basis for discussion.

That sounds like a good idea!

tooironic, you've definitely got a point. I'm just thinking about how to implement this. Do you think a field called "Notes on usage of this idiom" would do for information on how common idioms are, regional information, etc? There is already a field to allow the contributor to add example sentences. As I posted yesterday, the form I created was just to give everyone a rough idea of the possibilities, I'm very willing to change it as you all see fit

[tooironic]

Yes, I think something simple like "Notes" would be fine. Not all idioms will be that complicated, but there will be ones which are informal, dialectal, vulgar, proverbial, online-only, feminine, etc.

[Scoobyqueen]

I have just entered the following idioms:

八字还没有一撇

热锅上的蚂蚁

照 ... 不误

I used one from Gato's list which is good. Please feel free to comment.

Their meanings and examples you can find here.

Incidentally, has anyone experienced this in other languages. When you come across an idiom, you first understand it literally and then its figurative sense. I have a German colleague who uses a lot of idioms to express herself and I find myself being bombarded with literal images when she speaks, for example "it is not in dried handkerchief" (project not yet complete) " and "it fits like a fist in the eye" (perfect fit) "grab in the toilet" (poor choice). I spoke to a Chinese friend about this and they say it is the same for them when they learn English, she cited "life flashing in front of you" as one of the ones that made her smile.

The more colourful the image the easier it is to remember I find. When you are completely fluent in a language you stop thinking about the original meaning of an expression and basically just use it. Anyone else had this experience?

Edited June 6, 2009 at 06:03 PM by Scoobyqueen
link was wrong

[chrix]

yes, after 5 years in the US, I hope I can say this for my English now

my major deficiencies are

- I'm not familiar with most of the TV series Americans grew up with

- I don't understand the language used in rap and hip hop

so I don't get most allusions from those areas.

Also in general, German and English have a lot of false friends also in idioms, it can be a minefield out there....

Also, as far as this colloquial idiom project goes, I like it a lot! It's of great use, since most resources I know deal with chengyu, and not so much with more colloquial idioms.

So since very word is supposed to be tested, this would rule out automated stuff like culling non-chengyu idioms from CEDICT, right?

On a related note, even though I just wrote there is more stuff out there on chengyu, anybody game for setting up a similar user-generated thing for chengyu?

[Scoobyqueen]

I don't understand the language used in rap and hip hop

Isnt that just because a lot of it is just used because it is meant to rhyme I adore Eminem's older stuff. He is an absolute genius, enviable to be able to do that with words.

I'm not familiar with most of the TV series Americans grew up with

or probably nursery rhymes and baby language:wink:. I have a friend whose parents are Italian. He was born in Germany but his first language at home was Italian. He just moved to Italy and got a kid yet he cant bring himself to speak to it in German, despite being a native. He thinks it is because he was never spoken to in "German baby speak".

I think it is a good idea doing a similar thing with the chengyus. It is possible there are already some good lists out there. The colloquial idioms are harder to find as often they dont occur in text books and yet they are such an important components of the HSK.

[chrix]

yeah that might be true what you say about rap.

I can get all kinds of political jokes now, but I have a colleague who loves to make a ton of pop culture references in his speech. Really hard to follow at times, though slowly I'm starting to understand who this "Brady Bunch" is...

as far as nursery rhymes and baby talk go, I don't know. At least I know "twinkle twinkle little star" In my experience so far, babies don't mind too much in what language they're spoken to...

so for the chengyu, do we just open a similar google doc? I have been compiling some lists myself, but it is not that structured yet.

[Daan]

Haha I know exactly what you're talking about. Imagine my surprise when I looked up what painting the town red means in British English. - or for that matter, don't get your knickers in a twist...just visualise me taking that literally ;) After many hours of exposure to colloquial British English (thanks in part to the BBC), I've now heard a lot of the common idioms, but sometimes I still find myself in such a lovely state of utter bedazzlement.

As a learner, I agree that a good grasp of colloquial idioms is very important to any learner, so I'm definitely going to try and use the idioms collected here in daily speech. I recall one evening a few years ago when my mum wanted to take me out to dinner in London and we ended up having a table next to three rather intoxicated British gentlemen who were out on the booze. They were trying to attempt to seduce the waitress, but when that failed they turned their attention to us and asked us if we were on our honeymoon (?!). What followed was a hilarious conversation with Clive and his two friends ("Don't tell them, but my friends are f*cking idiots"), in which they used pretty much all the idioms they could come up with, as long as they were related to the UK tradition of binge-drinking...boy, was I glad to be able to riposte with some related idioms!

OK, anyhow, I've just added a "notes" field. I could create another form for the chengyu expressions, if you like. Let me know! Thanks for the idioms you've entered so far, Scoobyqueen!

Edited June 7, 2009 at 08:35 PM by Daan

[Scoobyqueen]

I have just inserted some more idioms. If anyone wants to comment on them please feel free:

节骨眼儿

八竿子打不着

翻了个底儿朝天

They can be found here.

if we were on our honeymoon

I bet your mum was chuffed but also impressed by your skills.

don't get your knickers in a twist

mostly a reaction to females ......or if a bloke is being hysterical...

so for the chengyu, do we just open a similar google doc? I have been compiling some lists myself, but it is not that structured yet.

I think several people already have cheng yu lists as they are quite common. Let's search the forums first.

[Scoobyqueen]

I have just inserted the following idioms. If you find any mistakes or generally want to comment please feel free to do so on this thread.

Terms Idioms just entered:

八成得黄

连轴转

李三层外三层

一事无成 (might be a cheng yu?)

You can find the list of the idioms here.

If you have any idioms you wish to contribute please enter them here.

[Scoobyqueen]

I have just inserted the following idioms.

往枪口上撞

豁出去

煮熟的鸭子飞了

You can find the list of the idioms here.

[Scoobyqueen]

Just entered these:

一把屎一把尿

过了这村。。。。没这店儿

里外不是人

[Scoobyqueen]

More idioms:

团团转

悠着点儿

松了一口气

Can be found here.