它们

[Jose]

I have come across the pronoun ta1men 它们 a few times, which I find somewhat odd. As far as I know, the men suffix is only used with animate nouns, so isn't it a contradiction to use it after 它 to refer to a group of things?

Is the use of this pronoun regarded as standard?

[zackzhou]

Uh hum. The point I'm trying to make is the Men suffix is NOT only used with living things.

[shibo77]

Usually when 它们ta1 men5 is used, it is a personification technique. To give animals/things a human aspect.

A few years ago, the Ministry of Education in the mainland decided to stop the usage of "她ta1" for females, and now "他ta1" is used for all humans and non-humans personified. For non-humans(animals, objects, the third kind...), "它ta1" is used. "们men" is therefore used for all, humans and non-humans, and not only for pronouns, but for all nouns.

-Shibo ::

[hparade]

A few years ago, the Ministry of Education in the mainland decided to stop the usage of "她ta1" for females, and now "他ta1" is used for all humans and non-humans personified.

really? I noticed that in taiwan, i don't know mainland has this too... 她 is widely used in hk though

[shibo77]

Yes! Now flip open a primary/secondary school textbook or 课外读物/指定书目literature geared for them, there are only 他ta1 and 它ta1, but no 她ta1.

SIMPLIFIED CHINESE in the mainland

我wo3 我们wo3 men5 I, we

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你ni3 你们ni3 men5 you, you

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他ta1 他们ta1 men5 he/she, them (human)

它ta1 它们ta1 men5 it, them (non-human)

TRADITIONAL CHINESE in Taiwan

我wo3 我們wo3 men2 I, we

------------------------

你ni3 你們ni3 men2 you, you (male, all males or males+females)

妳ni3 妳們ni3 men2 you, you (female, all females)

------------------------

他ta1 他們ta1 men2 he, them (male, all males or males+females)

她ta1 她們ta1 men2 she, them (female, all females)

祂ta1 祂們ta1 men2 (s)he, them (reserved for God(s))

牠ta1 牠們ta1 men2 it, them (animate, animal usually domesticated)

它ta1 它們ta1 men2 it, them (inanimate, other organisms, object)

-Shibo

[skylee]

When I was in school (in HK) (long time ago), I was taught all the forms of ta1 (他, 她, 它, 牠, 祂). But even then, I was taught that 他 could be used to refer to female (actully it is the primary form and can be used to refer to anything), and 它 could be used to refer to animals.

I think it is a great loss to abolish 她. The word sometimes helps to clarify things, and IMHO is quite romantic. And a government decree like this may not work if we the naughty go on to use the "abolished" words. And mainland students who are not taught these words are bound to see them on the internet or other media.

[shibo77]

How do I use 祂ta1?

They want gender-equality.

But I think it will still be kept in literature writing. But kept out in technical writing.

Thanks in advance!

-Shibo

[skylee]

祂 is used in the Bible or religious writing to refer to the God.

[Quest]

I think it is a great loss to abolish 她. The word sometimes helps to clarify things, and IMHO is quite romantic.

共产党专做没必要的事情，把同音的字都合了起来。先是的地得，再是他她它..... 几个常用的同音字真的那么难记吗？我就觉得它们有助于辨别句型和genders。

[hparade]

but I notice taiwan also use 他 to refer to all genders... seen that on on TV and internet...

[Claw]

I think it is a great loss to abolish 她. The word sometimes helps to clarify things, and IMHO is quite romantic.

Though keep in mind that 她 didn't even exist until the 20th century. According to this site, it was introduced sometime around the May Fourth Movement in 1919. Before then 他 was used for both he and she. I do agree though that it is often useful to use it to distinguish male and female in writing.

[Quest]

didn't even exist until the 20th century 的何止她。最好都不要，全复古。总比搞得不伦不类的好。